[jodyel]

Long, but well worth reading.

[fwdude]

Very interesting, and convincing, points made. Thanks.

[mrsmel]

Thanks, good exposition.

[Jeremiah Jr]

Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

A B C

Enoch

Book 1: Watchers
Chapter 1

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

3 Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, 4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. 5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. 6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame 7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace. And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed. And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'. 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

And...

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained

36 Then Yeshua sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

See: Malachi 4, Daniel 7:21, Jude 1:14, Revelation 13:7, etc...

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Buckle up! Cuz the ride just gets wilder!
John Lennon

[Lee N. Field]

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

...

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years.

Statements like that make me think Ice really doesn't understand what the other side is saying.

[wheat_grinder]

Real quick. Bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first then those who remain. And the dead are the first to leave. We will not preceed them! When? At the last trump. The seventh (last) trump (et) is fairly close to the end of the 3 and 1/2 year Great tribulation. The apostles (except one) all had their lives ended horribly. Most of the prophets met an untimely end. If you are NOT raptured before all comes to pass make sure you are not decieved by any of the miracles designed by the antichrist.
BTW, the rapture theory has only been around a little over a hundred years.
Jus’ sayin’.

[CynicalBear]

Pre Trib Rapture is the only thing that fits what scripture teaches.

[Hoodat]

If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.

[editor-surveyor]

Same old half-way arguments.

The most definitive evidence is Yehova’s Fall Feasts, and the words of Paul “At the last trump” which describe only one particular time.

The tribulation wouldn’t be a tribulation if Satan didn’t have any of Yeshua’s sheep to tribulate.

The wrath that we are to be protected from comes after the tribulation, when Yeshua returns with his angels and his bride to apply the wrath of Yehova upon the world.

The trib and the wrath are clearly two different periods.

[verga]

Matthew 24:29* “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30m And then the sign of the Son of Man* will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31n And he will send out his angels* with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

[Cvengr]

A good reference. Thanks. GB

[Springfield Reformer]

Ping for reference