Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
I see, nor do I feel, any nasty at all. It’s just a discussion as I see it. I doubt any of us have any feelings of nasty. Just a discussion and study of scripture. Shoot, I, at one time, believed like they do until I did more study. I certainly hope no one else is feeling nasty.
>> No matter what your take on this subject please be ready for pre, mid or post. Stay close to the Master and stay in His word.<<
We are in 100% agreement there.
>> As an aside, look into the 4 blood moons coming up. Pretty interesting.<<
I don’t think that’s an “aside” at all. I think it fits with prophesy perfectly. Just look at what happened during any of the past 4 blood moon times. Great point!
I think this is interesting. Y’all keep going with it! Good stuff :)
Same here. It was one of the most enlightening studies I’ve done. It shows what an awesome God we have. Understanding prophesy helps to understand so much else about what scripture teaches. It all makes sense when put in proper perspective.
I believe that prophecy from our Creator through the Scriptures is for the past, present and future... similar to eternity past, present and eternity future. We cant wrap our finite brains around that....That is why His word is Truth... I don’t discount a literal 3.5 years(1260 days) but I can perfectly in history see where that has been fulfilled in part. I don’t discount a literal mark of the beast but I know the Seal of God is in the 4th commandment and His Sabbath and worship of Elohim on His Sabbath is a spiritual mark so why wouldn’t the mark of the beast counterfeit that ? I believe the mark exists today spiritually... and it is as subtle as our solar Gregorian calendar and five day work week... until this year, I read the bible with man made calendar in my brain..it is what we were taught... but the new moon and the exodus and passion week and feasts in Leviticus (and along with the story of Jericho in Joshua) I see He has a calendar -and a way to count a month- and then a week and His Sabbath is more Saturday or Sunday in our calendar then it was Tuesday for 4 weeks in July... when the Spirit led me in my study to the biblical calendar, I can see where the entire church is, I say with extreme humbleness, wrong using the world’s calendar.... so subtle.. but isn’t that exactly how the deceiver works? Stealing worship on God’s Sabbath and even have infighting within the church which Gregorian man made named day to worship...... but forget about having a church follow that right now... and you would be using vacation days midweek for four weeks because your work only works mon-fri...no church I know follows this and even the jewish calendar is man made... so that is why I can see revelation in the past, present and future.... none of us have it all figured out... that is why we all need His Mercy and Grace more than we all know or care to think about.... coming out of something like the worlds calendar extremely difficult...we like our three day weekends and two days off... none of that is scriptural either... safe to say I can’t be boxed into doctrinal disputes on sides when I am on an island on His Sabbath as it can be on any day in our Gregorian days of the week. And it changes on our calendar but the Sabbath is always the seventh day of His work week.. But the new moon is the key because His month begins with every new moon in scripture...and our calendars are solar only...
Most Christians do not study the Torah or the Feasts. They cannot understand how the Feasts tell of the coming of Messiah and the end of times.
Sorry Bear, was not referencing you as nasty.
I don’t worry about things much at all.
The Lord always watches over me and protects me...has all my life.
Disagree, but thanks for posting.
No!
The 144,000 are spread throughout the world, but the woman is guided to a pre set location.
The “wrath” is the bowl judgements that come right after the first resurrection, which came at the end of the trib (last or 7th trump).
>> “I think this is interesting. Y’all keep going with it! Good stuff :)” <<
.
Yes! This is stuff that we have to hammer out now, not wait for someone else to do it.
>> “ The point is for us to have relationship with the Father now and plow forward with the kingdom of heaven in this life rather than turning our eyes away.” <<
.
Yes, but the two are not mutually exclusive. We have to have both.
Amen CB!
It is part of doing the work of God...
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he"
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord..."
"...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
(John 6:29,John 13:19,2 Tim 1:7-8,Rev 19:10)
Some seem to think the study of prophecy is somehow an 'aside' to the main point.It is not,it is Jesus' testimony and proof of His Sovereignty.He is an "all-consuming fire".Believers would do well to be aquainted with it.
Luke 12:37-44
"Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath."
The servant that is watching will be blessed,the servant that gives "meat in due season" will be made ruler over His household.So Jesus says that when He comes He will bless that servant who is telling the household 'He is coming!'
So please do continue this fascinating topic!
Psalm 27:5
"For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock"
Grace and peace to you all.
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