Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Romans 15:
[25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.Clipping a scripture to hide its meaning?
[26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Their spiritual things, the ancient scriptures, and all they reveal!
Interesting watching this thread (lurking :)....you can see the errors of some though they cling mightily to them, hard to let go of deception....easier to continue to believe what they have convinced themselves of. Sad yet they are not so far God can’t reach them....some just take much longer to come around.
Amen!
It isn't the WHAT, it's the HOW. Perhaps you had missed this part:
Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
and this:
Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
pssst! at the sound of the seventh trumpet, the mystery is finished!
See, the thing is, the whole POINT of the prophecy is to declare what He is doing from the beginning - that is what proves he is God. Messiah is not a mystery - He is in the OT. The church is not a mystery - it is in the OT. The gentiles being brought in? OT.... The rapture? OT.
The way one knows that a thing is from YHWH is to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES - If it ain't in the scriptures, it ain't from YHWH, Right? And what were the scriptures in Paul's day? OT. It HAS to be found in the beginning if it is of YHWH, because NOTHING can be added to or taken from...
Just how is it that folks are supposed to confirm Paul in his day without the Scriptures? How is this 'new' thing to be reckoned?
Oh dear Lord not another one of those “95%” of God’s word is correct ideas please.
You obviously didn't bother to check the link I gave you upthread, which detailed the major differences and inclusions. Anyone with a modicum of curiosity can find the statistics and the differences from any number of scholarly sources... If you have otherwise, then prove it.
And as I have reiterated time and time again, and once more so that even the dense can understand: the Word is *not* words on pages, which undoubtedly contain error as a matter of fact... The Word is discerned and is inerrant. If it is the words themselves, then you had best quit relying on English and go directly to the Greek - And when you do, please return and tell me which MSS IS the inerrant one, as I have already given you ample opportunity to do...
As to who is the 'Fullness of the Gentiles', it is right there in plain sight - Read the Torah and you will find it.
LOL! Do you see the irony of what you have posted? The heretic sinneth... What is sin but transgression against the Torah? So the one defending the Torah is the one who sins against it? The one who measures by the Torah is the one who is heretic?
The Tetragrammaton does not occur in any extant Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Extant Greek New Testament manuscripts contain the Greek word Kyrios (Lord) in Old Testament quotes where the Hebrew has the Tetragrammaton.
Wikipedia.org: Tetragrammaton in the New Testament
We are spiritual decendents of Abraham, NOT genetic.
The Tetragrammaton does not occur in any extant Greek manuscripts of the New Testament.
Those are the only manuscripts we have that God has seen fit to preserve for us today. There are no other manuscripts or any proof whatsoever that those are not the original words given by the Holy Spirit.
“Howard claimed that the Tetragrammaton may have appeared originally in the New Testament”
May have? You base your beliefs on “may have”?
” Howard in a personal letter stated: "My theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory.”
So you come in here trying to get us to take some guys theory over scripture?
”Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief."
Do you see that ” they should not be used as a surety for belief.”?
You can take your theories to someone else. I will take the scriptures as God has preserved them for us thank you very much.
Quotes taken from: Wikipedia.org: Tetragrammaton in the New Testament
What I said was that His Name is covered over. That it is hidden. And it is a FACT that in direct quotes from the Tanakh YHWH is replaced with kyrios in the surviving manuscripts. That is not transliteration. It is an intentional replacement. There is no 'theory' involved at all.
Oh yeah? Prove that the Holy Spirit didn’t have the writers write what we have in the Greek version of those documents we have for the New Testament.
Does the Spirit teach men to disobey the Torah? To cover up the Name that is to be a remembrance and declared?
i don't know - You decide.
I’ll ask again. Prove that the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire exactly what is contained in the only Greek manuscripts we have available.
I just did.
No you didn’t. You made a statement from speculation. At least the guy who started that whole nonsense admits it’s “just a theory”. Yet here you are promoting it as fact. You can’t show that the only Greek manuscripts we have today are not exactly as the Holy Spirit inspired them to be written.
>> “We are spiritual decendents of Abraham, NOT genetic.” <<
.
That is your presumption, to which you are entitled, but that is not what the scripture said.
What I promoted stated as FACT is that the direct quotes from the Hebrew that contain the Name of YHWH were all changed to Kyrios. It is simple enough to prove, as we have the Hebrew, and we have the Greek. Whether that happened in the writing thereof or in the copying thereof can't be proven as fact without the original autographs.
I doubt completely that the Spirit would be behind systematically hiding the Name, as the Spirit would not break the Torah.
>> “Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things” <<
.
Their spiritual things are the scriptures, the “Oracles of God.”
Those scriptures were carried forward by the house of Judah, and no one else. All others on Earth owe a debt to Judah for maintaining the scriptures and the necessary supporting traditions.
You don’t say!!
>> I doubt completely that<<
You doubt?? Dude, you came in here and claimed that only 95% of what we have as the New Testament is accurate. Yet you only have the “theory” of some guy who says ”Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief." and your doubts? May God have mercy.
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