Sounds like Greek to me...
Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
This is the second time you have accused me like this - Is it your position that the New Testament comes to us letter perfect, piously handed down to us through the ages? Because that simply is not the case. There are some 380,000 textual variations (primarily spelling or obvious mistakes) across all accepted MSS, and (IIRC) at least 4 well known major inclusions (or suspected inclusions, to be kind), of which the Johannine Comma is no doubt the most famous. And that is just low, or textual criticism, and not even touching upon the wide variation in modern translations.
But an admission toward variants in the text help to defend in the case of high criticism - For instance, in handling the '14 generations' problem in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus: The set contains only 13 generations. But if one steps away from the Greek and looks at the Aramaic, there ARE 14 generations, because the last entry does not say 'Joseph, husband of Mary', but rather, 'Joseph father of Mary'... Which would also resolve the greater issue of the variation between the genealogy in Matthew and the genealogy in Luke - One now obviously the lineage of Mary, and the other the lineage of Joseph (something long suspected in the Christian community).
Is that right? I don't know. But it fits. Since the text is problematic, and the Aramaic provides a solution, it is at least wise to be aware of the variation.
The Tanakh is less troublesome, primarily because of the superior production and control exhibited by Jewish scholars and scribes in comparison to the methods used by the Roman church. The Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) have been invaluable in authenticating the Masoretic tradition... but not perfectly, as the proto-masoretic (as distinct from masoretic) is different. And proto-LXX (notice again, *proto*) is also present there, albeit in low quantity.
so are the words inerrant? Decidedly not. But the Word is not words on paper. Is the milk there? You bet. Is the meat there? YEP... Shoot, I was saved while reading an NIV Bible. But I am now almost strictly KJV, not because it is inerrant in it's text, but rather, because it's errors are well known, and because it's translators had the honesty to italicize their inclusions... Is an NIV functionally capable? YES. Is it as functionally capable as the KJV? NO. Is the KJV PERFECTLY capable? No. When one gets right down to the nitty-gritty (which is seldom), when there is a problematic verse or passage, one would be an idiot not to check other translations, and if not resolved, go back to the different MSS across ALL MSS families in order to try for understanding...
As to the Name: http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm#Pronouncing
The Jews have long admitted it.
Thanks. And thx for the links too : )
Your repeated false accusations clang like a broken bell lying in the mud.
The thread is loaded with scriptures that I have provided for you to ignore, all of them soundly supporting my assertions, and fully refuting yours.
smvoice; WVKayaker
Only in your dreams. Goodbye.
Tell ya what. You keep casting doubt on the Greek text God has preserved for us today which is MUCH older than the “Roman” church you continue to trot out much as Satan loves to cast doubt on God’s word. I’ll continue to promote the word of God as He has seen fit to preserve it for us today and have faith that He has been able. I’ll continue to post scripture as my source with full faith that God has kept His word to us to preserve His word for ALL generations. K?
School yard punk says nya, nya, nya, nya, nya.
His palls applaud hid eloquence.
Sounds like Greek to me...
Sorry for the fat fingers.
Just.wow. I have done nothing to cast doubt. I have merely related textual criticism (which you asked for).
Still hanging in, my friend?
How’s it going over there now?
Yes, I have been hanging in here pretty good. Thankfully, the earthquake damage and tragedy was on other islands nearby. But, I have been busy the past few days preparing for a move.
I am moving to Davao City on the island of Mindanao, but I will not be living in the dense metropolitan area. I’ll be moving to an area next to the beach, at least within a reasonable walking distance of a couple of blocks. The rent is less and there is a Protestant church nearby with a Korean pastor and Filipino congregation. Therefore, they speak English in all of their services and communications. The church I attended here sings hymns in English and uses the King James authorized version, but all the preaching is in Cebuano, a dialect I don’t understand.
I met another FReeper who is moving there to marry a Filipina lady, and she has graciously found the house to which I am moving. I’m packing up and leaving here Wednesday, and will arrive there on Thursday to start another adventure.
It’s interesting that this conversation is on this thread, “present tribulation versus future tribulation”. I’m sort of hoping there won’t be any of that when I’m there. But, praise God I will have a new church family and new friends.
Here’s a link to a Facebook page with lots of photographs from Bohol, the epicenter of the 7.2 earthquake, and the website for donations.
https://www.facebook.com/rebuildbohol
http://rebuildbohol.com
Sounds absolutely lovely.
God is looking after you...no surprise there. Write and tell us all about it when you are settled in and of course send pics.
I opened a firestorm of a different sort on this thread. Who knew? :)
Thanks for the links too. Will have a look.
God bless and stay safe!
And I will do it again should you continue to make the claim that God was somehow unable to keep His very name intact in the New Testament as we have it today. The idea that man was somehow able to obscure God’s very name from any of the available Greek manuscripts we have today did NOT come from the Holy Spirit. I can assure you of that. To make the claim that the New Testament we have today in the Greek documents available to us has somehow been changed to obscure the name of God is to claim that those Greek documents are not the inspired, infallible words of God. If you promote that concept it’s logical to believe that there were other things in those manuscripts that were changed also, and that by definition is denying the infallibility of those Greek documents.
Denying that the Greek manuscripts are the infallible word of God seems very close to saying that only the Jews could have received God’s word. That Gentiles were not worthy. When we KNOW that NOW there is no difference in God’s eyes. WHO was He to give His word to? The Jews had been blinded and set aside. There was still the fullness of the Gentiles that He was bringing in. HELLO...WHO would He give His word to???
Then it should be easy for you to point to His name, right in the Bible you have in front of you... The names of his rivals remain well known, and are used as a matter of course world wide (when the commandment is to not even say them at all), Yet YHWH's name, which we are ordered to speak, is covered up completely in His own Word. The names of all the characters have been Hellenized, to include Yeshua Himself. Names do not get changed in transliterations - it is very uncommon, Else you would call a Mexican 'Michael' instead of 'Miguel', when speaking English, wouldn't you? Names MEAN things, and one wholly loses the Hebrew connotation of things, because the Greek supplants them.
If you promote that concept it’s logical to believe that there were other things in those manuscripts that were changed also, and that by definition is denying the infallibility of those Greek documents.
I am not 'promoting' anything. It is a BARE FACT that even among the Majority texts, there are differences. Even among the exemplars of the Textus Receptus, there is *not* perfect agreement. The very reason one can detect derivations of Eusebius within the assembled MSS is because He back-translated a verse out of LXX, and everyone who used his work carried the MISTAKE forward... And I don't know of a single translation that is pure to any exemplar, not to mention even the Byzantine family. THAT, my FRiend, is FACT.
What preserves the text is it's proliferation - It is 95% SOUND, across tens-of-thousands of manuscripts, so the vast amount, the lion's share, is wholly without question. Of the remainder, another 3% can be readily deduced. But even so, there are latter additions that can be strongly argued as inclusions, whether you believe them or not, and there are differences, especially between families, which necessitate the argument that it is not 100% pure.
But as I said, the Word is not the text on the paper. It is about discernment (Spirit), which as an Evangelical/Protestant, you must agree with. Rightly dividing is about observing structures, cultural norms, and most importantly running every thought and interpretation through the Torah, and through the Words of Yeshua (same thing). *NOT* running hither and thither, a verse here and a verse there - Which is how the Word is abused to cover every heresy there is... But rather, interpreting EVERYTHING in a way that the words that came before are *never* made empty. YHWH is the ONLY God who demands it so, and it is the primary evidence that He IS THE GOD. Every other 'god' authorizes his priests to change things after the fact.
And the accusation does not work with me anyway - I haven't derived ONE of the things I have said here outside of the Word itself (even if I might suspect tampering) - With the exception of the cultural knowledge I have derived from Talmudic (and other) sources for their cultural and historical import, which only allows me to see things from an Hebraic perspective... And that is exactly the RIGHT thing to do.
I KNOW you are aware of the Hebrew wedding - And no doubt you have gained immeasurable knowledge of the very covenant you are under because of that understanding - How much more to understand the Mikvah instead of the Greek baptism?
A SIMPLE understanding of 'disciple' in the Hebrew, where it is a very exacting thing, versus the Greek idea, which is more like a student, necessarily must cause one to question typical Christian thought, and rightfully so, or y'all may as well just wander over to those who claim to have the authority to change things after the fact - it isn't that the text can't change, because it does, into many different languages, sometimes better than others - What cannot change is the Word itself - what it says.
And knowing that a disciple *must* emulate the Master, must *never* destroy His Words, should be a HUGE wake-up call... Not only in your interpretations of His disciples, but in your LIFE, as you FRiend, are a disciple too.
One of the greatest themes in the Bible is that YHWH does_not_change, and that what He said in the beginning is what will most certainly BE. Add to that the knowledge that prophecy IS ALL the testimony of Yeshua (HE authored every word from 'in the beginning' to 'Amen'), how then can His coming have altered anything? How can He promote CHANGE to that which He Himself wrote was unchanging?
Yet looking at the traditions of Christendom, it is without a doubt that change has certainly occurred, and coincidentally, every visible change falls right in line with pagan traditions - How can that be right?
But, what about The Mystery? Something that was NOT prophesied, but hid in God from BEFORE the foundation of the world, until revealed to Paul by revelationS of the risen Christ? That makes up about 20%, but it's a BIG 20%. The most important part you will ever be a part of. And you are, you know, part of it, whether you want to be or not. Because we are LIVING in it. And have been since Paul was saved. And WILL be until the Church the Body of Christ is raptured.
Let it be known that I view the teaching that God was somehow thwarted is straight from Satan and not from the Holy Spirit.
Which of the authors of the NT were not Jews?
WHO was He to give His word to? The Jews had been blinded and set aside. There was still the fullness of the Gentiles that He was bringing in. HELLO...WHO would He give His word to???
Your question is answered by finding out WHO the 'Fullness of the Gentiles' is.
Oh dear Lord not another one of those “95%” of God’s word is correct ideas please.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.