Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
Are you a preterist who believes the end-time prophesies have already been fulfilled?
Yep, just wish we weren’t always preaching to the choir, my friend.
Do any of these people ever actually crack open a bible and read it?
No, they won’t “skip out”. They will be taken up by Christ. True, faithful, believers have never been subjected to God’s wrath in any way.
I’m puzzled as to how anyone can see it any other way. Where do they get that from?
Not with a prior prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding I fear.
Sorry I think Pre Trib is a bunch of BS. Its still a semi free contry though so we can all have an opinion. But not for long. Better start thinking about whether you will hold your little kid’s wrist out for the chip when the SHTF (prolly soon) and you have no food stored up so you are down at the football stadium at the mercy of the govt. Its OK with me. We won’t be there or taking the chip so not our problem.
Um... It's been around since Christ mentioned it.
If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.
Same old half-way arguments.
The most definitive evidence is Yehova’s Fall Feasts, and the words of Paul “At the last trump” which describe only one particular time.
The tribulation wouldn’t be a tribulation if Satan didn’t have any of Yeshua’s sheep to tribulate.
The wrath that we are to be protected from comes after the tribulation, when Yeshua returns with his angels and his bride to apply the wrath of Yehova upon the world.
The trib and the wrath are clearly two different periods.
I attended Bible college back in the 70s. One of the classes was on the book of Revelation. The professor was an amillennialist. All through the course, he presented his views as we study the Scripture. There was no test at the end, but we had to write a paper.
I did a lot of Bible study and had given it a lot of thought. So the title of my paper was “a pre-millennial response to the heresy of amillennialism”. When I got back my paper, it had a big A+ written at the top. He laughingly told me that while he still didn't agree, I have presented the case pretty well.
But, in the end, it's really just counting how many angels on the head of a pin. There's enough Scripture to let us know that it really doesn't matter when, or where, that the only thing important is to know we'll be there with Him in the end. Until then, it's interesting for debate, but it's better to spend the time preaching Christ crucified! The Gospel is the message, and all the rest is just something to talk about…
From the organizations they belong to. Most just apply what that organization gives them to scripture rather than “searching scripture daily to see if what they say is true”. I grew up in one of those organizations. Always had questions they didn’t seem to be able to answer that matched what scripture said. That got be doubtful about what they taught and I began a lifelong investigation of scripture with prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding. It didn’t take long to realize that the organizations that had there start in the RCC were only slightly less in error than the RCC itself.
If people only rely on what those organizations teach they are going to be rudely awakened one day soon.
>> “BTW, the rapture theory has only been around a little over a hundred years.” <<
.
The “First Resurrection” has been in view for the future since Yeshua began his 70 week ministry on Earth for sure.
We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ.
>> “If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.” <<
.
What????
Satan died and its been cancelled?
Try again!
No, they are not. The tribulation period of seven years is the wrath of God on this world. I would suggest you pray for guidance and understanding from the Holy Spirit.
>> “We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ” <<
.
If that were true, he wouldn’t have advised on the importance of avoiding the mark, nor told of those that suffered for refusing it. (or offered an excuse for those marked against their will)
Some still need milk others have grown to include meat.
“We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ”
Better 911 the rapture train as Barry Soetoro aka the Man of Perdition is going to be revving up the chip parade real soon in a neighborhood near you.
There will be many who realize after the rapture what they missed and that they still have a chance at eternal life but will definitely die for their faith and then there are the 144,000 Jews who will live through it.
There is no dying for your faith after the church is taken out. You will have missed the train.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.