Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel,
[24] Speak unto the children of Israel
[34] Speak unto the children of Israel
[42] Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:>p> [43] That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths,
44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.
We are Gentiles and in the church age.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
That’s EXACTLY right, CB. Now WHO is rejecting the words of the Lord? I’m at peace. Are you?
Please enough insulting Yehova’s word!
1 Thess 4:16 is at the last trump, as Paul and Yeshua state so many times. After the tribulation of those days!
So much for teaching spiritual kindergarten, class dismissed, see you in the morning.
That ends our conversation editor. I think all who read these posts know what spirit that type of comment comes from. Have a good evening.
Then why did Yeshua and all of his apostles observe all of the feasts, and counsel others to do so?
Of course Moses spoke to Israel, is this a feeble form of humor?
Finish the passage in Acts, ok, where it says that they will learn the rest on each sabbath, hearing Torah read.
Why do you always trim your posting of scripture to hide the real meaning?
YES, I am completely at peace knowing God’s promises.
It comes from a spirit that is weary from all of the “pre-trib” deception, and twisting of the scriptures back on themselves.
The REAL question is: Why did Paul counsel against it? I've already given you the Scripture on that, so I won't repeat it. He was also an apostle. Saved and given his commission by direct revelations from the risen Christ. Until you can answer that question with any kind of coherency using Scripture, I would say you have no idea, really, and are just grasping at straws now. Good luck with that, and post to me again if you are interested in rightly dividing God's word of truth. It will untangle you from the pretzel position you're in.
Please read Romans!
We are now grafted in to the Hebrew root of the tree.
Yeshua’s flock is one.
Paul did not counsel against it! - That is a falsehood that needs to be rightly divided and discarded with the rest of the detritus. Do not attempt to divide Yeshua’s flock.
When Christ saved Paul and sent him forth with the gospel of the grace of God, and reconciliation through the finished work of Christ, He did that, not BECAUSE Israel had believed, but DESPITE the fact that Israel had NOT believed.
This means that we, the Body of Christ, are NOW God's agent for the continued execution of the plan of God (Eph. 3:1-11). We have taken Israel's place for now. But ONLY until the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in (ROm. 11:25)...until the body of Christ is complete.
Yes, we are now grafted into the Hebrew root of the tree. As God's "people". As the ones doing God's work, as the ones who have been kept secret since the world began, as the ones who are spreading His good news about grace. All things Israel SHOULD have been doing, but did not, as they rejected Messiah. Once again, we are NOT Israel. Never have been, never will be. We are God's ELECT AGENCY during this time of the grace of God. Just like Israel USED to be, and WILL be again, after we are removed. Get it?
editor,
What background are you coming from that you hold to things meant for Israel and use Yeshua and Yehova?
No other believers here, that I am aware of, do this.
So do you have a Jewish background or what? Might go a long way in explaining how and why you interpret Scripture as you do.
I come from an evangelical background so hold to the dispensational view that sees the Church and Israel as two very separate and distinct groups.
jodyel
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm
Excerpt:
The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God’s plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, especially in the prophecy revealed by Christ in Matthew 24. They often acknowledge that there is strong biblical evidence for a pretribulation Rapture; however, they inevitably come back to their interpretation of Matthew 24, which seems to indicate that the Rapture follows the events of the Great Tribulation.
In the passage in Matthew 24, Christ is on the Temple Mount explaining to His Jewish disciples the events that will occur in Israel and in other nations that will lead to the return of Christ as their Jewish Messiah. The disciples’ question that Jesus was answering concerned the coming of Israel’s long-promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church (which they did not even know about). It is easy to forget that, at this point, before the crucifixion of our Lord and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there was no such thing as a Christian Church. If you had told one of the disciples during the week before Christ’s crucifixion that someday there would be an organization based on Christ’s teachings, called the Church, and that 99 percent of its members would be uncircumcised Gentiles who would follow neither Jewish law nor offer Temple sacrifices, he would probably have fallen off his chair in shock and disbelief. One of the classic mistakes in interpretation is to take this conversation between Christ and His Jewish disciples concerning the messianic kingdom and read back into it the reality of the Christian Church which did not come into existence until the Jews rejected Christ and God breathed life into His Body of believers.
Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the “abomination of desolation” (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who “shall be taken.” Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God’s plans for the Tribulation saint who become believers after the Rapture?
Do you not realize that most of the so-called gentile church are actually the Hebrew diaspora?
What you post is a sophistry, as it ignores the visible evidence. For example there are two strains of surnames in scandinavia, the Slavic root names, and Hebrew names with ‘son’ appended.
Similar situations exist in many other countries.
Only Yehova can fully discern his remnant.
>> “The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God’s plan for Israel and His plan for the Church” <<
That is more false teaching that needs to be ‘rightly divided’ to the trash heap. The scriptures demolish that nonsense everywhere you look.
Yeshua has one flock that he is pulling together into one sheepfold.
Excuse my sophistry, but...DUH. I already told you God has a roster, not me. I don’t know what you want from me. You seem to be arguing things we’ve already gone over. As if it’s a re-run or something. Give me something new and I’ll be glad to sort it out with you. I’m talking about Scripturally speaking, of course.
We are just not on the same wavelength, editor, and I don’t see what you do.
But, nevertheless, it is not a doctrine that makes or breaks salvation so we can disagree on it and still be okay.
So when was the 490 years prophesied by Daniel for Israel finished?
And until people understand what His plan is as given to us in prophesy they will always believe in error.
Re read, Paul was sent to all, but was “mighty unto the gentiles.”
That was then and this is now. Paul is dead and the Hebrew diaspora is mostly contained in what are called gentile peoples.
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