Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
It is late and I am tired, am I reading this correctly, are you agreeing with me?
Sorry, I still hold to pre=trib.
http://ariel.org/dlc/dlc-sma-39.htm
Here is a view that supports both...rapture of the church before the tribulation, and rapture of the tribulation saints after the tribulation.
Interesting.
These are some serious mental gymnastics to go through to agree with this.
1) Every protestant on this forum agrees that the "people" are the "church", are you now saying different?
2) At least one of your fellow protestants has said that once the rapture is over, it's over. Is she wrong?
3) Chapter and verse where is this "second" rapture mentioned, since the word "rapture" itself is never mentioned by name?
Lets look at some other quotes from the Bible.
Mark 1324j “But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory, 27 and then he will send out the angels and gather [his] elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky.
Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand.
21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city,
22 for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled.
23 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people.
24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles* are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves.t 2 6People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens* will be shaken.
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand.”
Verse 28 sounds like He is speaking to the faithful Christians about an event AFTER the tribulation.
I did not say I agreed...just presenting you with something to think about.
Did your read the article?
Think it makes the case well.
Context is the key.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
New Living Translation (NLT)
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[a] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[b] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2013/09/the-rapture-part-16.html#axzz2gzXzcg00
Or start with part 1 and move forward till arriving here.
New Living Translation (NLT)
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[a] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[b] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Yes that verse says that Christians will be taken up in the rapture, But and this is the really big Huge BUT, it doesn't say when that will be in relation to the tribulation.
The three references I showed you that it will occur AFTER the tribulation.
Further the scripture I showed were Jesus's own words, not Paul's interpretation of those words.
"...a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity" Tim. 2:7.
"...that thou mightiest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" Tim. 1:3
"If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things.." 1 Tim. 4:6.
"thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1 Tim. 4:16.
"If any man teach otherwise.." 1 Tim. 6:3.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Tim. 2:2. Etc.
I know the letters to Timothy were to him specifically. But obviously, they were to be shared with others. A continuation of Paul's message to all believers, and ministers, in particular. It's ALL (from Romans through Philemon) for ALL of us. Whether by specific name to be shared by all, or to a specific group, to be shared by all.
The epistles to Timothy are indeed about the building of a church leader, but they are also about the LAST DAYS (2 Tim. 3:1), and that would be information for ALL believers.
Read the whole of that article starting with part 1 and see how it all flows together.
Regarding my last post: IOW: Timothy was to give the information he received from Paul to all believers. Not just himself and ministers. There are both specific instructions for ministers and general information for all believers in the letters. As Paul received revelations from the risen Christ, so he gave that information to Timothy, to give to the Body of Christ.
The information Timothy received from Paul WRT the first resurrection was that it would be at the last trump. That was Paul’s firm position, as well as Yeshua’s.
What else is there?
The advise that is presented in both of Paul’s letters to Timothy dealt with false teachers. That would be false teachers on any subject, including the resurrection. Nothing Paul wrote to Timothy dealt with any details on the resurrection, just on the fact that there was false teaching going around that it was a past event.
Paul had already shown him what Yeshua had given to Paul, that it was to be “after the tribulation of those days,” and at the last trump.
Everything in the NT is about “the last days,” because the birth of Yeshua marked the beginning of the last days.
The discussion here is about the resurrection, which marks the end of the world domination by the Gentiles, IOW “Mystery Babylon.”
Every direct address to the exact time of that resurrection says either “after the tribulation of those days,” or “at the last trump.”
Can you find a reference that states a different specific time frame?
Jodyel, we look to scriptures to tell us the future, not to far fetched opinions of men.
The article you linked presented no scripture that supports any secret event. The resurrection will be visible to the entire world at once, that is what all scripture on the subject says.
Who would the “tribulation saints” be if Yeshua had already secretly removed his elect from the Earth? There would be no one left on Earth to preach the truth, and Satan himself guiding the entire system to destroy the gospel.
What would cause anyone to reject the mark of the beast if that mark was required to even buy food?
I’m sure that you can see that would be a most unlikely scenario.
Last article was put forth for thought...nothing more. I did not say that I believed it, but that it was interesting. Again, it takes the Spirit to rightly discern.
The Rapture of the Church will only be “seen” by the entire world in that they will have noticed many missing persons gone from the earth in the blink of an eye.
Tribulations saints are those that come to faith in Christ after the Rapture of the Church-Age believers and after the tribulation begins. The Holy Spirit will still be ministering and indwelling believers in the Tribulation. The Spirit would cause believers in the tribulation to refuse the mark.
Do you hold to dispensational theology, editor?
>> “The Rapture of the Church will only be “seen” by the entire world in that they will have noticed many missing persons gone from the earth in the blink of an eye.” <<
.
Not so!
It will be the most visible event that the world has ever seen.
Millions of Yeshua’s sheep rising up to meet him and his angels in the air will fill the skies of the entire world.
Yeshua described it as lightning visible from the east to the west. He said that if someone told you that it would be in a secret place, believe them not.
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