Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
It is late and I am tired, am I reading this correctly, are you agreeing with me?
Sorry, I still hold to pre=trib.
http://ariel.org/dlc/dlc-sma-39.htm
Here is a view that supports both...rapture of the church before the tribulation, and rapture of the tribulation saints after the tribulation.
Interesting.
These are some serious mental gymnastics to go through to agree with this.
1) Every protestant on this forum agrees that the "people" are the "church", are you now saying different?
2) At least one of your fellow protestants has said that once the rapture is over, it's over. Is she wrong?
3) Chapter and verse where is this "second" rapture mentioned, since the word "rapture" itself is never mentioned by name?
Lets look at some other quotes from the Bible.
Mark 1324j “But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory, 27 and then he will send out the angels and gather [his] elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky.
Luke 21:20 “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand.
21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city,
22 for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled.
23 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people.
24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles* are fulfilled.
25 “There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves.t 2 6People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens* will be shaken.
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand.”
Verse 28 sounds like He is speaking to the faithful Christians about an event AFTER the tribulation.
I did not say I agreed...just presenting you with something to think about.
Did your read the article?
Think it makes the case well.
Context is the key.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
New Living Translation (NLT)
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[a] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[b] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2013/09/the-rapture-part-16.html#axzz2gzXzcg00
Or start with part 1 and move forward till arriving here.
New Living Translation (NLT)
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[a] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[b] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
Yes that verse says that Christians will be taken up in the rapture, But and this is the really big Huge BUT, it doesn't say when that will be in relation to the tribulation.
The three references I showed you that it will occur AFTER the tribulation.
Further the scripture I showed were Jesus's own words, not Paul's interpretation of those words.
"...a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity" Tim. 2:7.
"...that thou mightiest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" Tim. 1:3
"If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things.." 1 Tim. 4:6.
"thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1 Tim. 4:16.
"If any man teach otherwise.." 1 Tim. 6:3.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Tim. 2:2. Etc.
I know the letters to Timothy were to him specifically. But obviously, they were to be shared with others. A continuation of Paul's message to all believers, and ministers, in particular. It's ALL (from Romans through Philemon) for ALL of us. Whether by specific name to be shared by all, or to a specific group, to be shared by all.
The epistles to Timothy are indeed about the building of a church leader, but they are also about the LAST DAYS (2 Tim. 3:1), and that would be information for ALL believers.
Read the whole of that article starting with part 1 and see how it all flows together.
Regarding my last post: IOW: Timothy was to give the information he received from Paul to all believers. Not just himself and ministers. There are both specific instructions for ministers and general information for all believers in the letters. As Paul received revelations from the risen Christ, so he gave that information to Timothy, to give to the Body of Christ.
The information Timothy received from Paul WRT the first resurrection was that it would be at the last trump. That was Paul’s firm position, as well as Yeshua’s.
What else is there?
The advise that is presented in both of Paul’s letters to Timothy dealt with false teachers. That would be false teachers on any subject, including the resurrection. Nothing Paul wrote to Timothy dealt with any details on the resurrection, just on the fact that there was false teaching going around that it was a past event.
Paul had already shown him what Yeshua had given to Paul, that it was to be “after the tribulation of those days,” and at the last trump.
Everything in the NT is about “the last days,” because the birth of Yeshua marked the beginning of the last days.
The discussion here is about the resurrection, which marks the end of the world domination by the Gentiles, IOW “Mystery Babylon.”
Every direct address to the exact time of that resurrection says either “after the tribulation of those days,” or “at the last trump.”
Can you find a reference that states a different specific time frame?
Jodyel, we look to scriptures to tell us the future, not to far fetched opinions of men.
The article you linked presented no scripture that supports any secret event. The resurrection will be visible to the entire world at once, that is what all scripture on the subject says.
Who would the “tribulation saints” be if Yeshua had already secretly removed his elect from the Earth? There would be no one left on Earth to preach the truth, and Satan himself guiding the entire system to destroy the gospel.
What would cause anyone to reject the mark of the beast if that mark was required to even buy food?
I’m sure that you can see that would be a most unlikely scenario.
Last article was put forth for thought...nothing more. I did not say that I believed it, but that it was interesting. Again, it takes the Spirit to rightly discern.
The Rapture of the Church will only be “seen” by the entire world in that they will have noticed many missing persons gone from the earth in the blink of an eye.
Tribulations saints are those that come to faith in Christ after the Rapture of the Church-Age believers and after the tribulation begins. The Holy Spirit will still be ministering and indwelling believers in the Tribulation. The Spirit would cause believers in the tribulation to refuse the mark.
Do you hold to dispensational theology, editor?
>> “The Rapture of the Church will only be “seen” by the entire world in that they will have noticed many missing persons gone from the earth in the blink of an eye.” <<
.
Not so!
It will be the most visible event that the world has ever seen.
Millions of Yeshua’s sheep rising up to meet him and his angels in the air will fill the skies of the entire world.
Yeshua described it as lightning visible from the east to the west. He said that if someone told you that it would be in a secret place, believe them not.
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