Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation

bibleprophecyblog.com ^ | July 6, 2011 | Dr. Thomas Ice

[jodyel]

Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

Church Age Tribulation

Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:

"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).

Later it was also said,

"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

Paul tells us,

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).

Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).

Peter noted the following:

"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).

Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.

Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:

And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.

Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]

I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.

The Tribulation

The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).

It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour

Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:

"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

In the same epistle he says,

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.

Revelation 3:10 says,

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.

Conclusion

The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

Endnotes

[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.

[Iscool]

So if you are waiting for the rapture train better hope it comes and takes you before Barry Soetoro and the globalists start trading RFID chips/food for your guns and your silver and gold.

We know the time is short...Could be this afternoon, or tonight...

[Iscool]

If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.

Glad to hear that...Hey, where can I get some pet Grizzly Bears???

[Iscool]

The tribulation wouldn’t be a tribulation if Satan didn’t have any of Yeshua’s sheep to tribulate.

Those sheep are unsaved Jews...

[Iscool]

But, in the end, it's really just counting how many angels on the head of a pin. There's enough Scripture to let us know that it really doesn't matter when, or where, that the only thing important is to know we'll be there with Him in the end. Until then, it's interesting for debate, but it's better to spend the time preaching Christ crucified! The Gospel is the message, and all the rest is just something to talk about…

However, if the Rapture is pre-tribulation (which I believe it is), the Great Tribulation then is all about the Jews, Jerusalem and Israel...

And that explains tons of things in the scriptures that otherwise do not fit anywhere else...

Matthew 24 and 25...Tribulation passages...NOT for the church...Judgment of the Nations on how they treated the Jews during the Tribulation...James and Hebrews, Tribulation...Those Jews are going to need plenty of scripture to lean on during those horrific times...

The World's and especially the attitudes of Christian churches toward Israel during the Church age...

Whether people admit it or not, and most don't, the Gospels teach salvation is by faith AND works...That's whyu so many people believe it...They read it because it's in there...

And those are the same people that skip over Paul's epistles where the formula deletes the works aspect of salvation...

My side does the same thing, but the opposite...We believe in grace by faith without works so everything in the scriptures has to teach without works...Ain't so...

I'd say it is very important to understand when the Rapture shows up and who it does and doesn't apply to...

[Iscool]

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

What generation???

Mat 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Which ever generation sees that happen is the generation verse 24 refers to...

[CynicalBear]

>>The 144,000 are spread throughout the world<<

Where do you get that from? On the contrary God told us He would gather them back to Israel, their homeland.

Amos 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

God has been gathering Jews from around the world back to Israel since it was established again in 1948.

[CynicalBear]

>>Sorry Bear, was not referencing you as nasty.<<

LOL I really didn’t think you were. I was saying that I feel no nasty from anyone else either. Maybe I have thick skin or something? Either way, no offense taken on my part.

[CynicalBear]

>>We believe in grace by faith without works so everything in the scriptures has to teach without works...Ain't so...<<

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

[CynicalBear]

>>Which ever generation sees that happen is the generation verse 24 refers to...<<

Actually it’s earlier than the abomination of desolation. It’s the generation that sees Israel regathered as a nation and the signs such as wars, rumors of wars etc.

[CynicalBear]

>>Yes, but the two are not mutually exclusive. We have to have both.<<

I fully agree.

[editor-surveyor]

The 144,000 are spiritual guides sent out from Jerusalem to the world. That is why they have the mark of Yehova.

[editor-surveyor]

Until the 7th trump, it is all of his sheep.

At the trump, he comes with his angels and gathers his Bride.

Soon thereafter, the bowl judgments begin; this is the wrath of Yehova being poured out on the Earth.

[CynicalBear]

>>The 144,000 are spiritual guides sent out from Jerusalem to the world. That is why they have the mark of Yehova.<<

Wow! There is no scriptural support for that as far as I can tell or have ever heard of for that matter. I would like to see how you came up with that one.

[CynicalBear]

>>Soon thereafter, the bowl judgments begin; this is the wrath of Yehova being poured out on the Earth.<<

Scripture would refute that premise. Revelation 7 tells us that even before the bowls there are saints who have come out of the “great tribulation”.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

That’s before the angels even prepare to sound the 7 trumpets we find in chapter 8.

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Already after the 6th seal all the men of the earth hid themselves as they understood the wrath of God is/has come.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They already said that what had happened was the wrath of God.

[editor-surveyor]

Revelation 14 is the 144,000 who are the servants of Yehova,

And Revelation 15 is the believers that have come through the tribulation, and had victory over the beast and his mark, and his number, and are gathered on the sea of fire and glass with the harps of Yehova.

Both of these groups return to the Earth, after the wrath has been poured out, with Yeshua to reign for 1000 years.

[editor-surveyor]

Chapter 7 and 8 are not a consecutive chain of events. They are two descriptions of the same chain of events set in different terms.

[editor-surveyor]

And Rev 15 makes it clear that the vials of wrath are poured out after the redeemed that went through the trib are gathered up.

[CynicalBear]

>>Revelation 14 is the 144,000 who are the servants of Yehova,<<

Servants? As in workers for? If that’s what you mean it can’t be. They are the 12,000 from each tribe. God said He would “be their God and they would be His people” again.

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

They are all in the land of Israel as God had promised they would be. I showed the scripture for that in post 106 and they are saved and will live on in the millennium.

>>And Revelation 15 is the believers that have come through the tribulation, and had victory over the beast and his mark, and his number, and are gathered on the sea of fire and glass with the harps of Yehova.<<

Those are the people who died during the tribulation for standing for God and not taking the mark. The church is no where mentioned after chapter 4.

>>Both of these groups return to the Earth, after the wrath has been poured out, with Yeshua to reign for 1000 years.<<

No, the 144,000 Jews are never killed because they are protected by God in the wilderness and will live on into the millennium. The saints that perished during the tribulation will reign with Christ.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Those are the people who died during the tribulation for standing for God and not taking the mark” <<

.
No , definitely not! - It says that they came through it, not that they died. They are those that were raptured at the 7th trump.

>> “Servants? As in workers for? If that’s what you mean it can’t be. They are the 12,000 from each tribe. God said He would “be their God and they would be His people” again.” <<

.
You struggle with the words of Yehova. Servants is the word that is used.

[editor-surveyor]

Rev. 7
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.