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To: Rashputin; Old Yeller; Elsie
Of course, those who prefer the authority of anti-Christ, anti-Christian, Pharisees to the authority of both Jesus Christ Himself and all of the Apostles are free to argue that anti-Christ, anti-Christian, Pharisees who could not possibly have had any legitimate authority comparable to that which had been granted to those who accepted the Septuagint in the first place, are the proper authorities to obey rather than Jesus Christ. The alternatives are to either argue that Scripture was unimportant to Christ and the Apostles and is therefore unimportant to this day, or to accept the same Scriptures Jesus Christ accepted. Personally, I side with Jesus Christ in these matters and accept the canon as it was for several hundred years prior to His birth and never questioned by Christ Himself.

Contortionist rants aside, how about you demonstrate with chapter and verse where exactly Jesus and the Apostles SPECIFICALLY quoted from these Apocryphal books and approved of them as Divinely-inspired sacred Scripture? You refer to a "canon" that existed "several hundred years prior" to Jesus birth, yet the ONLY ones who would have considered the books that belonged in a canon (rule of faith) would have been those Jews you condemn as "Pharisees who could not possibly have had any legitimate authority". Quite a conundrum, ey?

The Septuagint was a Greek translation of all the recognized Old Testament books and which also included those books called "deuterocanonical" (second canon). The Jewish religious leaders, however, NEVER accorded those books the same level of respect and consideration as those that make up what even today we ALL agree are the Old Testament books of the Bible. They rejected them NOT because of any "Christian" connection - which would be impossible - but because they reverenced what they KNEW had been given to them BY Almighty God and they knew that they were not permitted by God to add to those books He had delivered unto them by His prophets (holy men of God moved by the Holy Spirit). If one reads Jerome's introductions to those Apocryphal books that he included in his Latin translation, he also denies their canonical equivalence. So, in truth, it is not "anti-Christ", "anti-Christian", "Pharisees" who reject the canonicity of these extra books, but Christians down through the ages - just as Old Yeller said. When Jesus or the Apostles quoted Old Testament Scripture, they could have been using the Septuagint, or just plain, old speaking in Greek - which WAS the lingua franca of that time and place. Just because the Septuagint was used, it provides NO proof that the Apocrypha was held with the same esteem as God-breathed Holy Scripture. Jesus and the Apostles also used sayings that were not found in ANY of those books, but their quoting a work does not automatically imply divine inspiration.

Our FRiend Elsie has composed a great little comprehensive list of all the places in Scripture Jesus or the Apostles prefaced their teachings with, "It is written" HERE. Why don't you show us where they did that for ANY of those seven books so praised by some that they place them on par with Holy Scripture and condemn anyone else who disagrees with them.

68 posted on 09/30/2013 11:01:03 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

“Our FRiend Elsie has composed a great little comprehensive list of all the places in Scripture Jesus or the Apostles prefaced their teachings with, “It is written” HERE.”

Go Elsie!!!


171 posted on 10/01/2013 6:06:03 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: boatbums; Elsie
Those books were included in the most widely available, most commonly used, Greek version of the Scriptures when Jesus Christ Himself incarnate taught on earth, quoted from several of them, and never once implied in any way they had any lesser status than other Scripture.

Despite correction , Rashputin, whose is one of the RCs whose resortion to rants (followed by one of two pictures) has rendered him to be one of the RCs you cannot have an objective intelligent exchange with, continues to promote the same fallacies.

As said, the evidence is contrary to the LXX of the time of Christ containing the apocrypha. Other problems with the LXX agrument.

Nor did He quote from them as Scripture (Paul quoted even truth by pagans, but does not make them Scripture) unlike from canonical books.

And the fact that He enjoined obedience to the scribes and Pharisees, (Mt. 23:2) except where they deviated from Scripture, and never corrected them for rejecting the apocrypha, while Lk. 24:44 best indicates conformity to the tripartite 22 book (=39) canon, impugns the argument for the Lord's sanction of the apocrypha. And as said, the logic being rejecting the Pharisees due to their rejection of the apocrypha as Scripture, which is not condemned but evidence indicates it was upheld, also means we should reject all they held. And yet, as said, it is actually Rome that is most like the Pharisees, with the magisterium being supreme.

For the decision of their Scribes,... they claimed the same authority as for the Biblical law, even in case of error (Sifre, Deut. 153-154); they endowed them with the power to abrogate the Law at times (see Abrogation of Laws), and they went so far as to say that he who transgressed their words deserved death (Ber. 4a). By dint of this authority, claimed to be divine (R. H. 25a), they put the entire calendric system upon a new basis, independent of the priesthood. They took many burdens from the people by claiming for the sage, or scribe, the power of dissolving vows (Ḥag. i. 8; Tosef., i.). — http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12087-pharisees

Our FRiend Elsie has composed a great little comprehensive list of all the places in Scripture Jesus or the Apostles prefaced their teachings with, "It is written" HERE.

More

*Partial list of references to Divine written revelation being written (Scripture) and references to it, substantiating the claim that as they were written, the written word became the standard for obedience and in establishing truth claims. In full, the New Testament is stated to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations (including repetitions I believe), and more than 1,000 if one includes indirect or partial quotations, while another counts 275 direct quotes and at least 600 allusions to the Old (view many of both here. The following list does not include all of the former, and rarely includes simple allusions to Scripture (versus clear references such as to the law), but supplies a multiplicity of viewable (place mouse over reference, and if you cannot see them use a different browser, like Firefox) references to what was written or quotes thereof, including internal references within each Testament to Scripture (not just the New referencing the Old): Ex. 17:14; 24:4,7,12; 31:18; 32:15; 34:1,27; 35:29; Lv. 8:36; 10:10,11; 26:46; Num. 4:5,37,45,49; 9:23; 10:13; 15:23; 16:40; 27:23; 33:2; 36:13; Dt. 4:13; 5:22; 9:10; 10:2,4; 17:18,19; 27:3,8; 28:58,61; 29:20,21,27; 30:10; 31:9,11,19,22,26; 33:4; Josh. 1:7,8; 8:31,32,34,35; 10:13; 14:2; 20:2; 21:2; 22:5,9; 23:6; 24:26; Jdg. 3:4; 1Sam. 10:25; 2Sam. 1:8; 1Ki. 2:3; 8:53,56; 12:22; 2Ki. 1:8; 14:6; 17:37; 22:8,10,13,16; 23:2,21; 1Ch. 16:40; 17:3,9; 2Ch. 23:18; 25:4; 31:3; 33:8; 34:13-16,18,19,21,24; 34:30; 35:6,12; Ezra 3:2,4; 6:18; Neh. 6:6; 8:1,3,8,15,18; 9:3,14; 10:34,36; 13:1; Psa. 40:7; Is. 8:20; 30:8; 34:16; 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 25:13; 30:2; 36:2,6,10,18,27,28; 51:60; Dan. 9:11,13; Hab. 2:2;

Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33; 10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19 (Note: while the Bible reveals that there is revelation which is not written down, (2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) yet interestingly, a study of the the phrase “the word of God” or “the word of the Lord” shows that revelation that is referred to as being that normally was subsequently written down. Nor was the oral truth referred to in 2Thes. 2:15 that of nebulous ancient traditions (which can also result in different interpretations, such as the Roman Catholics and EOs example), but what Paul referred to was known instruction by a manifestly Divinely inspired apostle, whose manner was to reason out of the Scriptures, (Acts 17:2) and whose words were examined for veracity by Scripture. (Acts 17:11) And there is no proof that this truth also was not subsequently written down.

Note also that (reiterating what was prior expressed) Scripture reveals the Truth of God being established by testimony in both in text and in power, by way of textual conformity to what had been prior established as written Truth (God first confirming the faith of men like Abraham and Moses in virtue and power, and the latter providing the Law as the standard by which further revelation was tested by), and by conformity in Heavenly qualities and manifest effects, and often by the manner of supernatural attestation by the power of God given to it and to the intruments thereof (and most overtly to the authority of those who progressively added conflationary, complimentary new teachings to Scripture). Thus writings called Scripture were themselves progressively established as being the assured Word of God (though they were such before men recogized them as being so), to the glory of God their author. However, while the references above provide abundant evidence to the textual aspect, the many that could be provided to the testimony to Truth in power are not, such as 2Ki. 5:15; Josh. 3:7 (cf. Is. 63:12); 2Ki. 18:6,7; Jer. 15:16; Ps. 19:7-11; Ps. 119; Mk. 16:20; Jn. 5:36; 14:11,12; Acts 4:33; 15:7-18; Rm. 15:19; 1Cor. 4:20; 2Cor. 6:1-10; 12:12; Gal. 4:6; 1Thes. 1:3-10, Heb. 2:3,4).

318 posted on 10/02/2013 6:32:52 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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