Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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The “Saints”, who says they are saints?
Saints are anyone who is saved and gets into heaven. It has nothing to do with the Pope having extraordinary power.
For something to be "making it personal" it must be speaking to or about another Freeper, personally.
However, jodyel, when you tell a Freeper, personally, that you will be sticking to him/her like glue that is "making it personal."
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Click on my profile page for more about the guidelines to the Religion Forum.
>> “Using Protestant logic...” <<
.
What ever happened to using the commandments that Yehova gave us in the scriptures?
That is how we know who and what a pastor is, and what a marriage is.
The Papists fail completely on both issues by that simple test.
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Sola Scriptura!
Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Sola Scriptura again!
Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Sola Scriptura again!
Is there a pattern here?
Yes, oral traditions are an abomination that violates these commandments.
Guiding the circumstances of my life and bringing me to a point of desperation so severe, He was my only hope.Indeed! There are those who are desperate sitting in the pews of the Catholic Church too, and the ones who truly want help, are sitting in the "daily" ones as well (not to mention standing in line for Confession and visiting an Adoration Chapel from time to time). What do you think you "have" over and above what I have as a Catholic? Why do you assume I haven't chosen only Him?
Not divinely inspired according to who’s standard?
This is just one of the reasons authority is so important... In order to follow Luther you have to insist that Christ’s church taught in error for over a 1000 years.
That didn’t work out for a certain king from England.
I’ve given up long ago trying to explain that to them :/
Selective listening..
Well I would contend your post agrees with what is Written, not me. Which is what should be about in any discussion. Does what one believe follow the volume of the Book (old and new testaments). And given I would be called out for 'sola-scripture' I would also be considered a Fundie. And I appreciate your apology, although it was not needed.
Ultimately each and every one of God's children are going to get a face to face with Him and only Christ will be our advocate. And God is keeping the only perfect record that we, individually, one by one, will be judged by. God does not need nor has He given power to flesh beings to pick out His saints.
His mother?
Thanks for proving my point.....
So again I ask....... *Whatever happened to *looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith*?
Looking to Jesus isn't good enough?????
It’s not the suffering but rather the mentality that the suffering is some kind of barometer of how much God loves us.
THAT is what is twisted.
Making *Saints* of people is being respecters of persons, a sin according to James, the author of the Catholic’s favorite book of the Bible.
2Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
4* [And] Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.
5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.
6* Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.
Look to Mary?
No, that’s getting my eyes off Jesus.
Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith isn’t enough for Catholics?
I guess not.
Thanks for proving my point.
and those would be??
So, it seems that Luke 15:10 would also apply to the heavenly saints.
So “it seems” is now authority. That sounds a lot like speculation to me. Pretty weak thought process.
So which books are you referring too? The ones with mistakes?
I don’t follow Luther, I follow Christ. Christ is the inerrant & Living Son of God.
Why do you think Christ made errors?
I have a heart for salvation (the Freeper) and that is what I meant by that statement.
From now on I will put those kinds of things in PMs.
Belief that results in spiritual rebirth and nothing in the Catholic church can do that.
But When God chooses to reveal Himself in the manner I speak of, He will.
God bless you, mlizzy!
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