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It’s Biblical to Ask Saints to Pray for Us
Ignitum Today ^
| 15 September 2013
| Matthew Olson
Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: will of the people
great acknowledgement of the eternal soul there
To: matthewrobertolson
Any essay that starts out by describing a Biblical, apostolical passage as “infamous” loses me right away.
To: CincyRichieRich
First, God is of the living, not of the dead.
“Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.” - Luke 20:38 (NASB)
Second, how do you know that I’m “twisting [the] words” of the Bible? How is your interpretation any better than the traditional Christian position that’s been around for about 2,000 years? Unless you can definitively disprove my position, please refrain from saying that it is “not biblical.”
To: WilliamIII
The passage itself is not “infamous,” but the way Protestants frequently use it (at least in this context) certainly is.
To: CincyRichieRich
*So the soul is eternal. The heavenly saints are alive and conscious.
To: matthewrobertolson
Unless you can definitively disprove my position, please refrain from saying that it is not biblical.
so- praying to maple syrup is Biblical?
you can’t disprove it
one does not have to disprove an assertion to say it is extra or contra Biblical
and theses assertions only go back 17-1800 years
they are referenced in some of the ‘church father’s’ writings- not scripture
To: will of the people
I’d appreciate it if you didn’t use strawmen. Your use of them helps no one. Obviously, I am not proposing that we all pray to maple syrup.
When I asked the commenter to “definitively disprove my position,” I meant that they should disprove it by proving that it truly is in some way “extra” (which could most easily be done through the traditional, historical testimony, if my position were somehow indeed false) or “contra” (which could be done simply by using the Bible itself).
To: matthewrobertolson
Where does anyone in the bible ask a dead person to pray for them?
Catholic response: They're not dead.
Catholics don't care enough about the bible to discuss whether RC beliefs are biblical or not.
28
posted on
09/15/2013 2:13:58 PM PDT
by
DungeonMaster
(Allister Crowley would feel so at home in America today. "World's most average gay")
To: matthewrobertolson
here’s a recap of your argument which you ignored
hence the strawmen
so. .
if we determine that saints means dead Christians despite the way Paul uses it (in scripture)
and we see that they pray to God
and we impose upon them what they are praying about
we can therefore claim it is scriptural to pray TO them
that’s extra and contra scriptural
and i didn’t even mention maple syrup
To: matthewrobertolson
Discussed a hundred times on FR.
Not commanded in Holy Scripture
Not shown in Holy Scripture
Not taught in Holy Scripture
Not recorded at time of Apostles anywhere
Not seen in secular sources at time
Not recorded in sacred art at time
Total silence.
Hundreds of years later, this pagan custom emerges.
30
posted on
09/15/2013 2:17:14 PM PDT
by
aMorePerfectUnion
(The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
To: matthewrobertolson
It is rare that a day has gone by (since 1984 when I converted from Luther), that I
haven't requested the intercessory prayers of the saints.
I also believe that I've met three saints on earth. One was Mother Teresa of Calcutta, who is now a blessed, and working her way to sainthood. Another was a woman I met on Facebook (yes, I believe saints can be
anywhere:)), who we then met personally by mere "chance," and who has recently passed away [lung cancer], a wife and mother of eight gorgeous young children. I ask her intercession frequently. Then there was a friend of my sister's (another young wife and mother) who decades ago, passed away from complications due to brain cancer; her rosary in her coffin turned gold. The priest officiating said he had a vision, and saw Diane in heaven, while he was driving home from her wake.
Leon Bloy once wrote:
The only real sadness, the only real failure, the only great tragedy in life, is not to become a saint.
31
posted on
09/15/2013 2:26:08 PM PDT
by
mlizzy
(If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
To: matthewrobertolson
I will not refrain. Your premise is bunk. We do not pray to dead Christians. Sorry if you disagree.
32
posted on
09/15/2013 2:27:45 PM PDT
by
CincyRichieRich
(“Life is hard, but it’s harder when you’re stupid.” John Wayne)
To: will of the people
1. That’s a semantic argument. You’re just nit-picking about the usual word choice. They are “saints” because they are in the Communion of Saints — which includes both the earthly and the heavenly.
2. It’s clear that they do, if you look at everything in context. They are in awe of God, and constantly pray to and give honor to Him.
3. We’re not “imposing” on them. They’re already praying, anyway. If you were sitting in a room, praying, and someone came in and asked you to pray for them, would you refuse their request? I would think not, and I don’t think the saints would, either.
To: matthewrobertolson
34
posted on
09/15/2013 2:28:40 PM PDT
by
Jack Hydrazine
(IÂ’m not a Republican, I'm a Conservative! Pubbies haven't been conservative since before T.R.)
To: matthewrobertolson
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen
conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under
altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich
man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of
those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 Prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall
understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 whoever loves God must love his brother
1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men
35
posted on
09/15/2013 2:30:31 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: mlizzy
That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. May God bless you! :)
To: matthewrobertolson
I would take issue with only defining saints as one who is holy and in Heaven. The greek word, αγιος, is an adjective and defined as set apart by, or for, God, holy sacred. (Strongs) The particular version of saints in that passage is αγιων, which is in the genitve plural..meaning "of the saints" in referring to their prayers. In other words, the prayers of the saints. This could mean saints here on earth or those saints who have gone home to be with the Lord as is the case in Revelation. In Revelation, this is referring to those saints who have gone on the be with the Lord. There are several other passages in Revelation where the great multitudes are before the Throne of God. Who else are these, but the saints. The same word is used by Paul for saints in Rome, Corinth and Ephesus as is used in Revelation There isn't any difference, at least from a Biblical perspective, on these saints and the ones in Heaven. So what is different about Moses and Elijah in terms of saints compared to saints on earth? Only that they have died and have gone to Heaven. Rev 9:28-31 That the martyrs can talk with God doesn't mean we can talk with them...or they with us. By your logic, if we can talk with them, they should be able to converse with us. Luke 15:10 there is nothing in Luke 15:10 regarding saints. It only references angels. Luke 20:35-36 this refers to those who are like angels and are the sons of God. the word for angels can be translated as equal to or like the angels. I find nothing in these two verses that suggests they are aware of earthly events. 1 Timothy 2:1 and James 5:16 I agree it is good for Christians to pray for each other. However, I think your logic overreaches and falls apart on your conjecture. If, and I mean if, we could pray to the fellow saints in Heaven why does James say to call on the elders of the church to pray over them if sick? When Jesus taught the disciples to pray it was to pray to Our Father who is in Heaven. Paul tells us in Romans that both the Holy Spirit and Jesus are praying for us. In the case of the Holy Spirit, He prays with words and groanings we can't understand. When Stephen was being stoned he cried out to only Jesus. In the OT, the prophets and others prayed to God. Jesus only prayed to the Father.
37
posted on
09/15/2013 2:30:46 PM PDT
by
ealgeone
(obama, border)
To: matthewrobertolson
If we have been given direct access the throne of Gog,given permission to call Him "Abba Father", and commanded to cast all our cares on Him, why would we want to waste the time talking to someone of lesser spiritual stature? Is God too busy to hear all our prayers that He has to delegate that out? And then too, are these 'saints' to whom we pray omniscient in that they can hear each and every prayer that is prayed to them?
Prayer is the highest form of worship and nobody, deserves worship but God alone.
38
posted on
09/15/2013 2:32:56 PM PDT
by
tbpiper
To: matthewrobertolson
I cannot recall anyone claiming to be a Chriatian ever referring to a scripture verse as “infamous” before.
39
posted on
09/15/2013 2:39:25 PM PDT
by
gitmo
( If your theology doesn't become your biography it's useless.)
To: matthewrobertolson
Where is the verse which says believers can pray to saints???
the verses cited don’t back up the thread claim.
You have to imply they do.
40
posted on
09/15/2013 2:49:52 PM PDT
by
RginTN
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