Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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That contradicts what the Bible says. A saint is one who serves God.
So what denomination are you claiming as the “correct” one?
Yes, yes, and yes again.
>> “since a saint is someone known to be in Heaven...” <<
.
Nonsense!
Likely, the majority of ‘saints’ canonized by the ‘church’ are in no better shape than the ‘church’ that invented them.
They took the wide gate, and they are slated for destruction.
amen! I don’t believe in the church I attend.
I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins. John 3:16.
>> “How many Catholic Churches are named after Jesus?” <<
.
There actually are some: “Christ the King,” “Most Precious Blood,” etc.
When I ask my Catholic friends how they identify themselves I rarely will hear Christian. I usually hear Catholic. It makes me think they have more faith in the Catholic church than in Christ.
I identify myself as a Christian...a follower of Christ.
“So what denomination are you claiming as the “correct” one?”
Well since the Bible doesn’t mention “denominations” I really don’t think that has anything to do with the discussion.
I am a Christian who believes Jesus is the Son of God. I believe Jesus died for my sins. Jesus is the Truth and the Life. Jesus is my savior.
Not a denomination.
It is a simple biblical reply to the idea that Mary and others are dead.
If Mary does not have ‘everlasting life’ using the KJV translation... what hope do any of us have?
The argument is as simple as one commonly used on atheists... if you believe the scientific research that indicates a finite universe and in laws of physics that do not allow for an effect to be greater than its cause... you don’t really have a choice but to believe in a supernatural cause for the universe.
Likewise... if you believe the words of John 3:16... it would be a fallacy to refer to saints... Mary especially as dead.
Amen, brother!
I did answer more than two ways.
Here- once again- is it Biblical for a man to raise a man to a saint?
Jesus is a man, He raised all of the children of God to saints. IS THAT Biblical?
Well yes. Jesus, himself IS the living word of God. Can’t get more Biblical than Jesus, So Yes.
Who are the saints? The children are the saints. Who are the children? The children of God are those who have faith in him.
Ephesians 2:19-20
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,…
So every time you ask someone to pray for you, and intercede on your behalf you are acknowledging they are saints, and ever time you believe you get an inheritance with Jesus, you are saying you , yourself are a saint.
So you are unwilling to opine on what denomination is right? B ut you appear certain that the Catholic Church, founded by Our Lord and governed by His appointed Apostles and their hand picked successors - that you are willing to claim is “wrong” - do I understand you now?
The problem with your “logic” is that you have no way whatsoever to know who rerally is a ‘saint.’
Probably not too many.
Catholic is the Universal Church - it exists on every continent - it has existed since Our Lord founded it. To claim that Catholic and Christian are somehow not synonymous is to ignore history and truth.
Mary is dead just as everyone else who is no longer on this earth. Their souls live according to and are where God has put them. We can no longer communicate with them until we too die and join them.
All men (and women) are sinners and have fallen short. Without the sacrifice Jesus made we would all face our due penalty. That includes Mary, every Pope, every Minister and every Deacon.
There is a word for someone who teaches the Bible is in error or casts doubt about Gods word. A common tactic among some.
And what business is i9t of yours, mine, driftdiver's, or anyone else's who is in heaven and who isn't in heaven?
It's ironic that Catholics are the first ones to loudly complain when they perceive that others may be judging them, vehemently invoking Matthew 7:1, when they think someone is judging whether or not they stand a chance of getting into heaven.
Jesus is also the Son of God. Do you profess to be the Son of God as well?
I can ask living people to pray for me all the time. The dead are beyond my reach as long as I can see over the dirt.
I think your definition of Catholic Church and mine differ. You see to place your faith in what eminates from Rome.
I don’t.
I place my faith in Christ and Christ alone.
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