Posted on 09/14/2013 12:29:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
And the Scriptures tell us that as Christ met the apostles on the shore on Easter, “He breathed on them (imparting the Holy Spirit) saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall bind, they are bound.”
My addition in parenthesis.
Thus Christ gave the Apostles, the first Bishops the power to forgive or not forgive sins and the priesthood and the Sacrament of Confession was thus founded.
I’ll take Christ’s words any day over Paul’s words.
Nice. But wrong. Since Paul’s words ARE Christ’s words. As given to him by direct revelation of Christ.
if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
And when we post similarly we are called provocateurs.
“When we speak of faith being dead without works, therefore, we speak not of a quantity of works which merit grace. The Papists, occasionally, imagine a scale in heaven with their good and evil works weighed against each other. For example, from the ‘Secrets of the Rosary” endorsed by Pope John Paul the second:
“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.
Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”
When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!””
Oh my!!
Thanks for posting!
It seems quite apparent to even the casual reader that the Catholic organization would like to see Paul's writings put into a box and buried. But, both of those writings come from the whole cloth of Scripture, according to that same organization. They brag about being the compilers and arbiters of those God-breathed writings.
Once again, Rome makes a claim not based clearly on the word, but on assumption of what they think it means. So, the proper Catholic trained up with a catechism of Roman theology, denied by the magisterium to decide for themselves, fall back into the error of the organization.
In the upper room, all those present were filled with the Holy Spirit. If, the Holy Spirit was given to only those apostles walking with Jesus, what you say might be true. But, Jesus never gave mortal men the role of priest. Just after what is referred to as the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, reads ...“14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Again, against the claims of the Catholic organization, the alleged role of the clergy is invalid and unnecessary.
But, even before the Lord's prayer, and that book of Matthew, Jesus tells us even more:
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Parsing those words, it appears that the prayers should be to God the father, and not to some cleric poseur. You are told to go into YOUR room, not a confessional booth in some remote building. Your clerics tell you that you can recite repetitious prayers for penance. Jesus talked about that as well, and called it empty and worthless.
Roman Catholics can look towards the organization for salvation. I'll continue to thank God for His coming to earth and saving my soul. He came to set us free, not to bind us with silly doctrines and empty promises. The prophets told us he was coming, as messengers. The New Testament gives us glimpses into his life on earth, and Paul's letters give us the clearest explanation of why!
In the second Timothy 3:16, we are told that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God”. I don't try to pick and choose which one fits my fancy. I don't try to pick and choose what words can explain things which obviously say something different. I rely on God's Holy Spirit to provide me with direction into his word, so I can grow in faith.
Jesus is our high priest. He told us that we can approach him boldly. I will take Paul's words alongside those words reportedly spoken by our Lord. But, I will parse them without trying to separate them from the truth. A proper exegesis of Scripture will always reveal the errors of you are man made institution and organization.
God breathed on me. He gave me the Holy Spirit. I have the same rights and responsibilities as every other Christian. My burden is easy. I must believe. And when I believed, he gave the Holy Spirit to me as confirmation that I have entered into eternal life and then I do not walk alone. I have been grafted into the family of God and I will continue along the road where he leads. It will never end and Rome!
Of course salvation is solely on the basis of the atonement of Christ. The Catholic Church, in fact, has condemned Pelagianism (salvation by works) as well as the variation called semi-Pelagianism.
As I understand it, Catholics consider "good works" to be the natural fruit of genuine faith, e.g., "For we are created unto good works" and "Faith without works is dead."
I understand that many Protestants believe (or are taught to believe) that Catholic Churches are filled with parishioners who are trusting wholly in their "good works" for salvation, as well as their membership in the Catholic Church.
However, many Protestants fail to grasp the very understandable concern on the part of Catholics regarding the dogmatic insistence that there is no relation whatsoever between good works and salvation. Unfortunately, this view can lead to "antinomianism" - the rejection of the moral law - and can lead in the flaunting of the moral commands of the law.
Jesus himself condemned this attitude: "Why do you call me Lord and do not do what I say?" We all know about the long list of famous Protestant pastors and evangelists who have fallen into sin and/or flagrantly show by their lifestyles that they love the "things of this world." (but we disregard such shameful excess because they are "spirit-filled", which apparently overrides the responsibility: "Do not love the things of this world)
On the other extreme, many Protestants - while condemning Catholics for believing in "good works" - evince a far greater legalism in their own lives. I grew up looking down my nose at Catholics who - gasp! - actually drank wine and beer! Just more evidence they aren't true Christians!
I frankly find embarrassing the arrogant and willfully ignorant attitudes of some on this board regarding Catholics - who (I cannot fail to notice) typically respond with grace and reason instead of knee-jerk condemnation.
Full disclosure: I was trained in well-known Evangelical colleges, have an earned Ph.D. in Theology, and have taught on the college level, served on the overseas mission field, and written extensively on theological subjects.
I didn’t say to bury Paul’s letters. After all he is a saint.
What I said is that Christ supersedes him. He very often in his letters gives Christ all the credit.
**makes a claim not based clearly on the word,**
Are you saying that the Gospels are not valid?
That’s all the farther I could read in your post.
Hmmmm...
My best friend is a black guy! I have lots of black friends, but everybody knows they are the worst...
I sense a theme and a new direction!
In fact, it does happen like that.
Once we believe, we are cleansed...no process required. Once we believe, we are immediately considered righteous in God’s eyes.
And should we sin again after believing, and we will because we are still fallen creatures, we are still saved. Yes, once saved, always saved....something else foreign to Catholicism.
I do not know of any born-again believer who pays lip service to works. The very fact we are here rebutting the false religion called Catholicism shows we take Jesus’ mandate in Matthew 28:19 to heart and this is the greatest work we can do.
**I frankly find embarrassing the arrogant and willfully ignorant attitudes of some on this board regarding Catholics - who (I cannot fail to notice) typically respond with grace and reason instead of knee-jerk condemnation.**
Thanks for the compliment!
Love the kettle. It looks Japanese.
No. Where did you think I say that?
That’s all the farther I could read in your post.
I would expect no less!
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiment of the world, and not after Christ..." Col. 2:8.
And: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. EVER LEARNING, and NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." 2 Tim. 3:5-7.
And of course there is:"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:26-29.
I could go on, but prayerfully you see yourself in these few posts of Scripture. If not, I'll be happy to continue..
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
To which I add AMEN, THANK YOU LORD JESUS!
Fullness of God in helpless Babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
? Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net ]
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin? s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From a life? s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Could ever pluck me from His hand
? Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I stand
I will stand, I will stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground, all other ground
Is sinking sand, is sinking sand
So I stand
“As a lifelong Protestant I have no problem with the Roman Catholic understanding of these verses in John.
Of course salvation is solely on the basis of the atonement of Christ. The Catholic Church, in fact, has condemned Pelagianism (salvation by works) as well as the variation called semi-Pelagianism.”
Personally, I find that Catholic theology is hardly logical or even consistent in their illogic, and so they deny Semi-Pelagianism, and Pelagianism, while simultaneously teaching it. A good example of this would be in Roman Catholic teaching that atheists, with “good will,” can be saved outside of Jesus Christ and the Church. This has been promoted by both John Paul II and now, recently, Pope Francis, as well as many Roman Catholics on this board. Though, perhaps John Paul affirms a “preceding grace” of some sort, when he asserted that the Holy Spirit was working within non-Christian religions.
“As I understand it, Catholics consider “good works” to be the natural fruit of genuine faith, e.g., “For we are created unto good works” and “Faith without works is dead.””
Which would basically put them on the same side as all the Reformed and other Protestant churches. Though, just at first glance, we know that certainly isn’t true.
“I understand that many Protestants believe (or are taught to believe) that Catholic Churches are filled with parishioners who are trusting wholly in their “good works” for salvation, as well as their membership in the Catholic Church.”
Speaking as a former Catholic and debating them almost every day, that is exactly the situation.
“However, many Protestants fail to grasp the very understandable concern on the part of Catholics regarding the dogmatic insistence that there is no relation whatsoever between good works and salvation.”
If you mean that good works result in salvation, and are not the purpose of salvation, then you would be utterly wrong, and you should go turn in your PhD for a Bible.
“Unfortunately, this view can lead to “antinomianism” - the rejection of the moral law “
No one here, as far as I can tell, is promoting antinomianism. So why even bring it up? Though, it seems to be the old accusation that has always been launched against Christians (Rom 3:8). I imagine if you can still manage to bring that against us, we must be doing something right.
“We all know about the long list of famous Protestant pastors and evangelists who have fallen into sin and/or flagrantly show by their lifestyles that they love the “things of this world.””
Since man is naturally evil, and there are many serpents crept in unawares, it’s a good thing Protestants aren’t in communion with a man who purports to be our single universal head over our entire religion. In which case, we’d have to deal with the embarrassment of our Pope eventually getting caught in bed with another man’s wife, and getting killed for it, just like the Papists have had to do historically with their Popes.
“5. Be baptized for the remission of your sins”
If you are referring to water baptism, I disagree. Although water baptism is a sign to all that you have been saved by belief in Jesus, it is not necessary for salvation.
Baptism by the Holy Spirit is what happens when a person is born again. The Holy Spirit cannot be received by those who are unregenerate.
Matt. 3:11, “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
Mark 1:8, “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16, “John answered and said to them all, ‘As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”
John 1:33, “And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, “He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:5, “for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 11:16, “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Huh? How do you know that Christ said anything? Was there a tape recorder? Paul learned everything he learned through Jesus/God's Holy Spirit. You can't separate their thoughts.
Paul NEVER took credit for any part of our salvation! Everything he wrote pointed directly at Christ! He only revealed God's plan of salvation.
Maybe you should read posts until the end. It's a lot easier on the knees.
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