First of all, here's a link to the post you made which we are referring to here, in case anybody else would care to read it to obtain context:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-relig ion/3046031/posts?q=1&;page=601#629
Now, here (below) is my private FReepmail note to you back then (08/01/13) in it's entirety, including Frank Sheed's excellent explanation. (I apologize in advance to other posters here for its lengthy aspect, and urge you to just skip over this post completely if you're not interested.) In this FReepmail note, I did NOT call you a liar -- I just said that calling "self-flagellation" a "doctrine of the Church" is a falsehood. I also did not say you were the devil, but only that all falsehoods come from the "father of all lies" (even if a person expressing such a falsehood may not be aware it is a falsehood). If you really believe that it IS a doctrine of the Church, you are merely mistaken about it, not intentionally lying about it, but nevertheless, it is still a falsehood. And I was not trying to insult you in that note by talking about the Resurrection, but rather pointing out that we do not understand ANY of God's Mysteries fully. (By the way, BlueDragon, did I understand the gist of what you were saying correctly --- that you raised a bird from the dead?)
Anyway, here is my real private FReepmail feedback note to you, BlueDragon, from 08/01/13.
Re: Does the Catholic Church Teach "Doctrines of Demons?"
To BlueDragon | 08/01/2013 3:52:18 PM PDT sent
You post to me here is unbelievable! I dont think Ive ever been accused of being dishonest and stupid in the same post before, like youve done here. Why dont we just take another look at the real facts, and forego the baseless and scurrilous name-calling?
Among other things you said in your post, you said, No, I understand the terms well enough, and they were not exactly Latin terms, for it was Aristotelian philosophical terminology which was employed by Aquinas, which explanation those at Trent borrowed from.
You DO know that Aquinas wrote EVERYTHING in Latin, and those Church Council documents were ALL initially written in Latin, dont you? There are many English translations of those books and documents available today, and they all differ according to who is doing the translations.
I merely told you that I was not one to be able to discuss with you the wording of Latin original documents translated into the archaic English language spoken in the 1500s (as I know very little Latin, and have not studied those Latin documents and am not an expert in them). Like I told you in my post, a Church history professor who knows Latin at a good Catholic University or Seminary would be a much better person to go to have an intelligent discussion about that.
You also said I am a person - not an opportunity for internet advertisement of Roman Catholic promotional materials. BlueDragon, you obviously did not read ANY of the references I provided for you. None of those references were any kind of internet advertisement of Roman Catholic promotional materials. Try reading them, and you will know that without any doubt, and wont say such ridiculous things again (if you are an honorable person).
The first references I gave you were texts with Biblical quotes from Jesus. You made it clear in your reply-post that you did not want to read those quotes from Jesus again for some reason.
The next reference I gave you was to a neutral (non-Catholic) wikipedia page that gave a brief explanation of how Catholics view the Eucharist, as well as how the Orthodox Churches view it, how the various major Protestant denominations view it, and so forth. They also provided a couple brief, quick summaries of how a few Early Church Fathers viewed it, which is exactly how the Catholic Church still views it today, and exactly how Jesus Christ taught it right from the beginning. (There is NO difference whatsoever check it for yourself.)
The next reference was to a page showing a chapter of a book by a noted Catholic teacher where you can see quite clearly what the Catholic Church teaches about transubstantiation and the Real Presence (as far as it is understood by us limited human beings). It is a very valuable and helpful reference I was sharing with you so you could see precisely the extent of our Catholic understanding of that great mystery, and you called it a mere worthless advertisement. If you care to have the decency to check that reference for yourself this time, I will post that page at the bottom of this private mail post, and you can try really reading it this time.
The next two references I provided for you were to both the online and the printed versions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where you can learn exactly what the Catholic Church teaches, including what the Church teaches about the Eucharist. (The online version of the Catechism is searchable.) You read it if you seriously, honestly want to find out exactly what those Catholic Church teachings are. It is NOT a commercial to anyone who has actually, honestly read it. (You dont have to agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church as spelled out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but at least you will actually know what those teachings really, truly are, and not continue to believe some wildly inaccurate caricature of them.)
Regarding the Churchs teachings about some of these mysteries (like the Eucharist) you used the term Purposely fuzzy in reference to those teachings. Does that mean you dont believe St. Paul when he said we currently see everything through the glass darkly? God does not teach humans everything there is to know about ANYTHING (especially His Holy Mysteries), and you would do well to learn that unequivocally. You (and I) can ALWAYS learn more about ANY of the Mysteries of God we will NEVER understand them completely.
For example, if you begin to think that you know everything there is to know about the mystery of the Resurrection, just take a stroll into the nearest funeral parlor, and try raising one or two of the dead people there from the dead. Then sheepishly go home and read this from the Bible, and absorb it with great humility:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9
God only reveals a VERY SMALL amount of knowledge about ANYTHING to humans.
You also said, All the other medieval do penance self-flagellation type of thing which some Roman Catholics of old (and still to this day?) engage in, or else seek to assert that others must continually do, to somehow earn His favor, to make us good enough by being punished enough - well, those sort of things ARE the doctrines of demons, to work the subject title of this FR thread into this reply...
BlueDragon, those kinds of strange things are most certainly NOT doctrines or teachings of the Catholic Church. That is a blatant falsehood, and you know where all falsehoods come from, dont you? What individuals do privately by their own choices should NEVER be confused with the real doctrinal teachings of the Church, so please dont get those things mixed up.
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In the future BlueDragon, if you cannot post a post to me on FR without shamelessly impugning my integrity and honesty, or insulting my intelligence, please do not post to me. That kind of garbage is entirely uncalled for, and should never be posted on FR (or anywhere else frankly). (I will extend that same courtesy of not posting to you again as well.)
However, if you do honestly want to learn what the Catholic Churchs teachings are about transubstantiation (and how they relate to Aquinas and to classical philosophy), I will include in this private mail not just the link this time, but the actual chapter from that Frank Sheed reference I gave you.
You can (of course) read it or not. Thats your call.
Here is that chapter:
" "
THEOLOGY FOR BEGINNERS F. J. Sheed
Chapter 18Eucharist And Mass
The Real Presence
The Blessed Eucharist is the Sacrament. Baptism exists for it, all the others are enriched by it. The whole being is nourished by it. It is precisely food, which explains why it is the one sacrament meant to be received daily. Without it, one petition in the Our FatherGive us this day our daily breadlacks the fullness of its meaning.
Early in his ministry, as St. John tells us (ch 6), Our Lord gave the first promise of it. He had just worked what is probably the most famous of his miracles, the feeding of the five thousand. The next day, in the synagogue at Capernaum on the shore of the sea of Galilee, Our Lord made a speech which should be read and reread. Here we quote a few phrases: I am the Bread of Life; I am the Living Bread, which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world; He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, abides in me, and I in him; He that eats me shall live by me.
He saw that many of his own disciples were horrified at what he was saying. He went on: It is the spirit that quickens: the flesh profits nothing. We know what he meant: in saying they must eat his flesh, he did not mean dead flesh but his body with the life in it, with the living soul in it. In some way he himself, living, was to be the food of their souls life. Needless to say, all this meant nothing whatever to those who heard it first. For many, it was the end of discipleship. They simply left him, probably thinking that for a man to talk of giving them his flesh to eat was mere insanity.
When he asked the Apostles if they would go too, Peter gave him one of the most moving answers in all mans history: Lord, to whom shall we go? He had not the faintest idea of what it all meant; but he had a total belief in the Master he had chosen and simply hoped that some day it would be made plain.
There is no hint that Our Lord ever raised the matter again until the Last Supper. Then his meaning was most marvelously made plain. What he said and did then is told us by Matthew, Mark, and Luke; and St. Paul tells it to the Corinthians (1 Cor 10 and 11). St. John, who gives the longest account of the Last Supper, does not mention the institution of the Blessed Eucharist; his Gospel was written perhaps thirty years after the others, to be read in a church which had been receiving Our Lords body and blood for some sixty years. What he had provided is the account we have just been considering of Our Lords first promise.
Here is St. Matthews account of the establishment: Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said, Take ye and eat: This is my body. And taking the chalice he gave thanks: and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.
Since they deal with the food of our life, we must examine these words closely. What we are about to say of This is my body will do for This is my blood too. The word is need not detain us. There are those, bent upon escaping the plain meaning of the words used, who say that the phrase really means This represents my body. It sounds very close to desperation! No competent speaker would ever talk like that, least of all Our Lord, least of all then;. The word this;, deserves a closer look.
Had he said, Here is my body, he might have meant that, in some mysterious way, his body was there as well as, along with, the bread which seems so plainly to be there. But he said, This is my bodythis which I am holding, this which looks like bread but is not, this which was bread before I blessed it, this is now my body. Similarly this, which was wine, which still looks like wine, is not wine. It is now my blood.
Every life is nourished by its own kindthe body by material food, the intellect by mental food. But the life we are now concerned with is Christ living in us; the only possible food for it is Christ.
So much is this so that in our own day you will scarcely find grace held to be Christs life in us unless the Eucharist is held to be Christ himself.
What Our Lord was giving us was a union with himself closer than the Apostles had in the three years of their companionship, than Mary Magdalen had when she clung to him after his Resurrection. Two of St. Pauls phrases, from 1 Corinthians 11 and 10, are specially worth noting: Whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord; and We, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one breada reminder that the Eucharist is not only for each mans soul but for the unity of the Mystical Body.
I can see why a Christian might be unable to bring himself to believe it, finding it beyond his power to accept the idea that a man can give us his flesh to eat. But why should anyone want to escape the plain meaning of the words?
For the Catholic nothing could be simpler. Whether he understands or not, he feels safe with Peter in the assurance that he who said he would give us his body to eat had the words of eternal life. Return again to what he said. The bread is not changed into the whole Christ, but into his body; the wine is not changed into the whole Christ, but into his blood. But Christ lives, death has no more dominion over him. The bread becomes his body, but where his body is, there he is; the wine becomes his blood but is not thereby separated from his body, for that would mean death; where his blood is, he is.
Where either body or blood is, there is Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity. That is the doctrine of the Real Presence.
Transubstantiation
Besides the Real Presence which faith accepts and delights in, there is the doctrine of ransubstantiation, from which we may at least get a glimpse of what happens when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christs body and Christs blood.
At this stage, we must be content with only the simplest statement of the meaning of, and distinction between substance and accidents, without which we should make nothing at all of transubstantiation.
We shall concentrate upon bread, reminding ourselves once again that what is said applies in principle to wine as well.
We look at the bread the priest uses in the Sacrament. It is white, round, soft. The whiteness is not the bread, it is simply a quality that the bread has the same is true of the roundness and the softness. There is something there that has these and other properties, qualities, attributesthe philosophers call all of them accidents. Whiteness and roundness we see softness brings in the sense of touch. We might smell bread, and the smell of new bread is wonderful, but once again the smell is not the bread, but simply a property. The something which has the whiteness, the softness, the roundness, has the smell and if we try another sense, the sense of taste, the same something has that special effect upon our palate.
In other words, whatever the senses perceiveeven with the aid of those instruments men are forever inventing to increase the reach of the sensesis always of this same sort, a quality, a property, an attribute no sense perceives the something which has all these qualities, which is the thing itself.
This something is what the philosophers call substance the rest are accidents which it possesses. Our senses perceive accidents; only the mind knows the substance. This is true of bread, it is true of every created thing. Left to itself, the mind assumes that the substance is that which, in all its past experience, has been found to have that particular group of accidents. But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood.
The senses can no more perceive the new substance resulting from the consecration than they could have perceived the substance there before. We cannot repeat too often that senses can perceive only accidents, and consecration changes only the substance. The accidents remain in their totalityfor example, that which was wine and is now Christs blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. One is occasionally startled to find some scientist claiming to have put all the resources of his laboratory into testing the consecrated bread; he announces triumphantly that there is no change whatever, no difference between this and any other bread. We could have told him that, without the aid of any instrument. For all that instruments can do is to make contact with the accidents, and it is part of the doctrine of transubstantiation that the accidents undergo no change whatever. If our scientist had announced that he had found a change, that would be really startling and upsetting.
The accidents, then, remain; but not, of course, as accidents of Christs body. It is not his body which has the whiteness and the roundness and the softness. The accidents once held in existence by the substance of bread, and those others once held in existence by the substance of wine, are now held in existence solely by Gods will to maintain them.
What of Christs body, now sacramentally present? We must leave the philosophy of this for a later stage in our study. All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present, though not (so St. Thomas among others tells us) extended in space. One further element in the doctrine of the Real Presence needs to be stated: Christs body remains in the communicant as long as the accidents remain themselves. Where, in the normal action of our bodily processes, they are so changed as to be no longer accidents of bread or accidents of wine, the Real Presence in us of Christs own individual body ceases. But we live on in his Mystical Body.
This very sketchy outline of the doctrine of transubstantiation is almost pathetic. But like so much in this book, what is here is only a beginning; you have the rest of life before you.
The Sacrifice of the Mass
Upon Calvary Christ Our Lord offered himself in sacrifice for the redemption of the human race. There had been sacrifices before Calvary, myriads of themforeshadowings, figures, distortions often enough, but reaching out strongly or feebly towards the perfection of Calvarys sacrifice.
These represented an awareness in men, a sort of instinct, that they must from time to time take something out of that vast store of things God has given them and give it back to him. Men might have used the thing for themselves but chose not to; they offered it to God, made it sacred (that is what the word sacrifice means). In itself, sacrifice is simply the admission that all things are Gods; even in a sinless world this would be true, and men would want to utter the trust by sacrifice. With sin, there was a new element; sacrifice would include the destruction of the thing offeredan animal, usually.
We can study these sacrifices, as they were before Calvary at once perfected and ended them, in the Temple sacrifices of the Jews, the Chosen People. The whole air of the Old Testament is heavy with the odor of animals slain and offered to God. The slaying and the offeringimmolation and oblationwere both necessary elements. But whereas the offering was always made by the priests, the slaying need not be done by them; often it was the work of the Temple servants. For it was not the slaying that made the object sacred, but the offering. The essential thing was that the priest offer a living thing slain.
With Christ, we have said, sacrifice came to its perfection. The priest was perfect, for Christ was the priest. The victim was perfect, for he was the victim too. He offered himself, slain. But not slain by himself. He was slain by others, slain indeed by his enemies.
What he did was complete, once for all, not to be repeated. It accomplished three things principallyatoned for the sin of the race, healed the breach between the race and God, opened heaven to man, opened it never to be closed. His is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for those of the whole world (1 Jn 2:1).
With such completion, what was still to be done? For something was still to be done. Christ is still in action on mens behalf, as the Epistle to the Hebrews tells us. Jesus has entered into heaven itself, that he may appear now, in the presence of God for us (9:24). He is always living to make intercession for us (7:25). What still remains to be done is not an addition to what was done on Calvary, but its application to each manthat each of us should receive for himself what Our Lord won for our race.
The intercession just spoken of is not a new sacrifice but the showing to God of the sacrifice of Calvary. The Victim, once slain, now deathless, stands before God, with the marks of the slaying still upon hima Lamb standing, as it were slain (Rv 5:6).
We are now in a better position to understand the Sacrifice of the Mass. In heaving Christ is presenting himself, once slain upon Calvary, to his heavenly Father. On earth the priestby Christs command, in Christs name, by Christs poweris offering to God the Victim once slain upon Calvary.
Nor does this mean a new sacrifice, but Calvarys sacrifice presented anewin order that the redemption won for our race should produce its fruit in us individually.
In the Mass the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christs body and blood. Thus the Christ he offers is truly there really there. The Church sees the separate consecration as belonging to the very essence of the Mass. It is a remainder of Christs deathand he had told his first priests at the Last Supper that, in doing what he had just done, they should show forth the death of the Lord, until he come (1 Cor 11:26). They should show forth Christs death, remind us of his death, not, of course, kill him, any more than he had killed himself on Calvary.
The priest offers the sacrifice. But we are, in our lesser way, offerers too. Twice we are told so in the Ordinary of the Mass. We have already seen how after the Consecration the priest says, We thy servants but also thy holy people [plebs tua sancta] . . . offer . . . a pure, holy and immaculate Victim. To see ourselves merely as spectators at Mass is to miss the opportunity to take our part in the highest action done upon earth.
One element in the Mass remains to be mentioned. We, united with Christs priests, have offered Our Lord to God. And God gives him back to us, to be the Life of our life. That is what Holy Communion means. God, while retaining Christ for his own, also shares him with us. So that God and man, each in his own way, receive the slain and risen God-man.
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Chapter 18 Eucharist and Mass
Theology for Beginners (c) 1981 by F. J. Sheed (from online EWTN web page)
The "private message" should have been posted openly on the other thread. That would have been more proper.
This is what I did say;
The "do penance" aspect, is not limited to self-flagellation, for I was characterizing the "do penance" (in comparison or contrast to simply repent) as a whipping one's self type of thing and did not state that it was taught as a doctrine of the church --- which you put in quotation marks, as if to be quoting myself as having said or used that exact phrase. Now I did say that that approach was doctrines of demons. Are you confessing the church (unofficially, kind-of one the side as it were) DOES teach the doctrines of demons? If not, then how to explain putting that phrase within quotation marks?
Perhaps here a simple acknowledgement on your part that you either misunderstood what I said, or mistakenly misconstrued the same could be called for. It would lead us both back and away from further troubles...