Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Is there anything you have to use to debate besides *Nope, you’re wrong* with no proof as to why?
Simply dismissing the messenger without offering anything as solid evidence to contradict what was said is the MO of someone who has lost the argument because they have nothing better in their arsenal.
At least some of your compatriots on this thread are at least trying to use well reasoned arguments as opposed ot mockery and derision.
What do you think “Romance languages” means if not translations? If the Church was forbidding them, they must have been unauthorized.
You need to read things in an historical perspective.
Grace is attained by God working through humanity. Just like the Incarnation, when He took humanity upon Himself in order to transform it.
That's what sacraments are - God working through his creation in order to transform it.
It all makes sense if you think about the Incarnation for a minute.
And that is easy?
I dismissed the message as self-evidently nonsense. If Scripture was “self-interpreting” there would be no chaos of a thousand different sects, with conflicting beliefs, all just following the Bible.
If one Bible believer sees free will and another sees predestination, which one is right? Both are sincere and both claim to be led by the Spirit.
Which one really is?
The answer seems to me to be “whichever one I agree with is authentically led by the Spirit and the other is corrupted by his sin nature, or the ‘wisdom of man.’”
The Council of Toulouse:
“
Who told you there was no chaos in the Catholic Church?
We certainly have had our share of conflict and people who have challenged beliefs.
What we do have is a way to determine, objectively for anyone who wants to know, what is the truth of our teachings. It’s called the Catechism. I mentioned it earlier.
Both of us know that God doesn't "need" prayers in order to shape up His priorities list, or to nag Him into getting on the job. He doesn't "need" to hear from everybody on a FR prayer ping list; He doesn't "need" me to ask you, or my husband, or the Blessed Virgin Mary for intercession; He doesn't need me! He knows my thoughts before I do!
I believe He has commanded us to pray, for our own good; and to pray for others, for that good, multiplied.
The truth I have before me always, is this: (1 Corinthians 12:27) "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." We are--- as ST. Paul says --- the limbs and senses of Christ on this earth: we are His cells, tissues, organs and systems.
That means we're always in effective and vital contact with each other, with the other parts of His Body, no matter how distant they may be from us in time and space, in heaven and on earth. (1 Corinthians 12:21) "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!'"
Can I say, then, "I don't need you" to those righteous people whose prayers, St. James says, are "powerful and effective"?
Or do the prayers of the saints on earth become in effective when they become saints in Heaven? That can't be. St. John says that in Heaven, the angels intercede by bringing our prayers to God: (Revelation 8:3): " Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne."
So, does God "need" angels to bring Him the prayers of people on earth? No. But to do it this way, glorifies Him, as all of His loved ones join together by loving one another in prayer. Paul says: " (2 Corinthians 1:11} Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many."
So, dear metmom, as God is glorified when everyone in His Body is praying constantly for each other, I commit myself to pray always with and for and through the intercession of these righteous people. Their prayers availeth much.
Blessed Virgn Mary, pray for us! All you angels and saints, pray for us!
Metmom, pray for us! Through Jesus Christ Our Lord.
We're having a rally on Sept. 15 which will involve Baptist, Catholic, and Nondenoms who will be doing the 40 Days for Life prayer campaign in Bristol, TN/VA. Bristol is almost 40 miles from here (Johnson City TN)) and I have to decide whether to throw our JC people into the Bristol TN/VA campaign, or organize something here at the JC Planned Parenthood office (which does not do abortions but does refer for them.)
I would like a sign from God on what He wants us to do.
So --- there's 15 days.
I'll tell you more as this progresses. The 40-Days campaign in Bristol TN/VA --- and around the wold --- will be Sept 25 - Nov 3.
The Council of Toulouse in it's canon was clear:
“We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”
A Psalter or Breviary...that's it, but nothing else. Anything else was corrupt and unauthorized by decree. The laity were not permitted to read the Bible on their own.
We owe a debt to those who sought to overcome this hateful decree.
Perhaps for both better and worse, depending on who is doing the describing. And in this, there can be agreed upon wordage, but with differing conceptualization resulting using the very same words.
Thank you for your polite reply.
And in this, there can be agreed upon wordage, but with differing conceptualization resulting using the very same words.
If by "this" you mean Eucharistic doctrine, I can only say, "Yeah, baby!" All the words -- body, flesh, blood, true, real, literal (my bugaboo), physical, substantial ... even if the goal were to find some kind of common ground we could spend the rest of our lives on vocabulary ... and that's before words like "hylomorphism" get tossed into the salad.
Thanks for writing.
It’s not easy to stop trusting myself and my works and efforts to trust wholly in God to do what He promised. The flesh wants to keep trying.
However, repent and confess is far easier than do, do, do, and when all is said and done, do some more.
The difference is, Catholicism teaches that salvation is worked out.
Scripture teaches that salvation is by being born again ONCE. Then it’s a done deal. That doesn’t mean the Christian life is easy, without struggles, but it does mean that salvation is easy because it’s by grace, through faith in Christ and once you are born again, you do not have to continue to work to keep it. That takes all the pressure of performance off.
There’s a difference between the difficulty in walking the Christian life as the flesh wars against the Spirit and the impossibility of trying to earn our salvation by works.
The angels are ministering servants to minister to those of us who are saved.
They are sent at God's command.
So, does God "need" angels to bring Him the prayers of people on earth? No. But to do it this way, glorifies Him, as all of His loved ones join together by loving one another in prayer. Paul says: " (2 Corinthians 1:11} Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many."
Sorry, that does not say that the incense is the prayer TO the angel or that the angel carried them from people. It just says he offered the incense at teh same time.
I have no argument at all about praying in one accord, in agreement, with anyone with whom I can communicate here on this earth.
I do take exception to the practice and teaching that those who have passed on can have anything more to do with us.
Perhaps they are praying for us in heaven. Be that as it may, that still does not justify a practice that is neither commanded or endorsed by Scripture.
Seriously, if it were that important, do you not think that God would have told us about it or to do it?
Can I say, then, "I don't need you" to those righteous people whose prayers, St. James says, are "powerful and effective"?
Those verse about the body are in regard to the exercise of spiritual gifts, not praying. And those of us clothed in the righteousness of Christ, who are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ, already are positionally as righteous as we can be.
A) Not the way you think and
b) Just like St. Paul Philippians 2:12
And your rebuttal falls apart when you ignore the other declaration from the Council of Toulouse which says.....
COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
.... and makes no distinction about language or authorized or unauthorized or anything. The prohibition is on owning ANY translation.
Catholicism leaves open the possibility of man boasting that he did HIS part. He co-operated.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Security of believer
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Perfect in Christ. Praise God!
Didn't we just agree that faith must be accompanied by works? Why do you try to equate "grace" with "believing"?
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