Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
Yup. At least his wife thinks so......
Ooops, ping to Elsie......
Catholics hear the Scripture, at minimum, every Sunday at Mass. It is a mini-Bible study because readings from the Old Testament, psalms, New Testament, and Gospels are read together to facilitate meditation on a theme. The priest then gives a talk on the readings. The prayers we recite all contain Scripture, as well.
Now add in the fact that the entire sacrifice of the Mass is Scriptural. Every Mass is a Bible study, if you know how to look for it. All Catholics are also encouraged to attend additional Bible studies at their parish, and to read the Bible on their own.
This in fact is the “high minded” approach and it’s the right one. Spiritually “bootstrapping” off of questionable scripture takes into a whole new realm of special revelation... whoa Nellie. Specially when two august Christian organizations go at this same game head to head with sharply contradicting takes.
Don’t forget though that merely studying the bible and not walking is like merely reading the manual of a car and not driving.
Ultimately when a symbolic communion WORKS, that’s what matters.
I agree with you on that. Anyone who is serious about his faith does his own reading, of the Bible and learned authors. Anyone who is serious about his faith prays on his own and in a community. Anyone who is serious about his faith lives it in his daily actions and continues to try to grow spiritually.
Many Catholics, and other Christians, do not put that kind of effort into growing a mature relationship with Christ. As a Catholic, I wish my parish leaders would help cradle Catholics make the transition from babies in the faith to adults in the faith. The sacrament of Confirmation as a teen helps, but there is so much depth, richness and beauty to Catholicism that it takes real study to mine it. Many Catholics stay babies in their faith.
However, it’s a misconception that Catholics don’t read the Bible. Many of us do. Catholics hear the Scripture, at minimum, every Sunday at Mass. It is a mini-Bible study because readings from the Old Testament, psalms, New Testament, and Gospels are read together to facilitate meditation on a theme. The priest then gives a talk on the readings. The prayers we recite all contain Scripture, as well.
Now add in the fact that the entire sacrifice of the Mass is Scriptural. Every Mass is a Bible study, if you know how to look for it. All Catholics are also encouraged to attend additional Bible studies at their parish, and to read the Bible on their own. How many make that effort? I don’t know. I only know that a good Catholic would. A serious Catholic would. My “study Bible” is as marked up as any Protestant’s.
You appear to be serious about accepting a personal salvational relationship with your Lord. With that perspective you’re now asking “OK what’s the big deal here.” You’re saved. Well you do have the 500 ton elephant called your Magisterium. Er, my master (magister in Latin) is Jesus Christ. This looks to we Crazy Evangelicals like an attempt to say God didn’t just guide, He outsourced. That won’t dash your salvation. It will warp your walk....
we Crazy Evangelicals => us Crazy Evangelicals
The Mary and saints additional focuses are based on claims of post biblical special revelation.
I think the difference between classic evangelical and Roman Catholic is clear.
However I have found direct praise and exaltation of Jesus and the Father (and sometimes based on context, even the Holy Spirit) is a powerful thing. I’d urge unsure Catholics to try changing their mix to see what happens. Start, for example, by doubling down on Jesus and the Father. I am bold and say that yes it will show empirically. What’s more, if Mary is there praying and praising... from my Crazy Evangelical point of view she doesn’t need to be begged to do it. She’ll do it all the time because that is where her heart will be.
“Practically... any mumble over the format seems to be accepted as a “Mass” because after all isn’t the view here that the “important thing” is the “transubstantiation miracle”? “
I’m not sure what you mean by that. If you mean Catholics mumble through Mass, I would say we pray more quietly and less ostentatiously than others.
Well when the clergy mumbles that’s not being humble.
And why do you equate clarity and distinctness with ostentation anyhow? That sounds cynical.
os·ten·ta·tious [ òss ten táysh'n ]
rich and showy: marked by a vulgar display of wealth and success designed to impress people
Then someone is going to post a televangelist and this line of discussion will go totally south...
I think the point is, let’s get the glory of the Lord going here. And if not, why not. Not “who’s the rottenest of them all.”
On the contrary, Catholicism is more Biblical than any other religion because we take Christ at his absolute word. He said it’s His Body and Blood and that’s what we believe. He said not everyone who cries, “Lord, Lord” is saved and that it’s difficult to get to Heaven. Being “saved” is so easy and, frankly, not the best Biblical interpretation of Christ’s words. His words, Paul’s words, and Peter’s words indicate there’s a long race to be run, and it must be run well and faithfully.
I’m a typical serious Catholic. There are many of us and many far more serious and faith filled than I. I am working on my salvation, every day, with fear and trembling. God is our guide and in His wisdom, He left us the Good News to nourish us, a hierarchy to continue to educate and inspire us in our faith journey, and Sacraments to strengthen us along the way. He promised us He would not leave us orphans and sent the Spirit to inspire the representatives He left here on Earth for us. He didn’t just guide us... he laid down the framework in great detail. He prayed for His Church to stay true and united. Again, Catholics are the closest to that scriptural passage. Every Protestant can have his own personal interpretation of Scripture and most do but that is a far cry from what Christ wanted for His Church. He taught the apostles and followers. He instructed. There is a correct interpretation in Christ’s world.
This is why Catholics say we have the “fullness of the faith” because we have the most complete and faithful understanding of Christ and His Scripture.
“... but he who does the will of My Father.” Don’t forget the rest of the “Lord, Lord” reference or you are guilty of misrepresentation by omission. He’s talking about folks that want Him as a talisman, not as a Master and Savior.
But a lot of you are there doing your magisterium’s will... treating Jesus as just that talisman. Or having begun to do His will which is what happens at acceptance of personal salvation, then you are now going on to do a blend of that and your magisterium’s will, not unforgivable but definitely needing correction before salvation finishes. Christ promised to guide. Christ never promised to outsource.
“And why do you equate clarity and distinctness with ostentation anyhow? “
I don’t. The Protestant worship I have witnessed is not clear and directed. It rambles and is often very repetitious. Many worshippers seem to be trying to out-pray, out-sing, and out-holy each other. Christ valued private, quiet, restrained prayer, remember?
Even in this, Catholics are closer to the Scripture.
“Well when the clergy mumbles that’s not being humble.”
Hmmmm. Our priests usually use microphones. Have you checked your hearing lately? I can hear them and understand what they are saying. We also have the entire Mass written out for us, in our missals, so you can also read along if you can’t hear what they are saying.
It’s a word picture.
Well Said!
OK so why don’t you equip your Catholic church buildings with sound booths...
You haven’t been in a typical Southern Baptist church at least. (As one example... I’m not setting up any denomination as special, just pointing out where the purest worship happens in the current age.) They’re quite respectful... AND clear. And their aspiration for holiness is aimed at the Lord and all congregants know it and they rejoice together. If YOU view it as “trying to out-holy” then look at YOUR eyes.
Again, microphones are used at Mass so we can all hear. We can also read along. I’m not sure what sound booths have to do with it. We hear what goes on on the altar.
I’m sure a lot of Baptists are trying to be holy. I just know the Catholic form of worship, tradition, and teaching are most like what Christ taught his disciples. I find the ancient format and prayers to be nourishing.
Aspiring for holiness does not have to be loud, harmonic, showy, or strident. It can be quiet, solitary, plain, and gentle... like Jesus Himself.
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