Posted on 08/17/2013 2:06:44 AM PDT by NYer
The Church's most prominent outreach today, the New Evangelization, aims at reviving the spiritual lives of those who have drifted from Christ. While these people may have been baptized and perhaps catechized, while they may attend Church semi-regularly, they have never been truly evangelized. They have never experienced a life-changing encounter with Jesus Christ or real transformation through his Church.
A couple weeks ago, Pope Francis delivered a powerful message to the Brazilian bishops in the midst of his World Youth Day celebrations. Unfortunately, it didn't get nearly the attention it deserved.
Speaking on the New Evangelization, and using the Emmaus Journey as a framework, the Pope encouraged his listeners to reflect on why people reject the Church today—why, like the Emmaus disciples, they decide to walk the other way. To bring people back to Christ and his Church, we must understand why they leave in the first place.
To that end, Pope Francis offered ten specific reasons:
1. The Church no longer offers anything meaningful or important.
2. The Church appears too weak.
3. The Church appears too distant from their needs.
4. The Church appears too poor to respond to their concerns.
5. The Church appears too cold.
6. The Church appears too caught up with itself.
7. The Church appears to be a prisoner of its own rigid formulas.
8. The world seems to have made the Church a relic of the past.
9. The Church appears unfit to answer the world's new questions.
10. The Church speaks to people in their infancy but not when they come of age.
Read the excerpt below for more context:
"The two disciples have left Jerusalem. They are leaving behind the 'nakedness' of God. They are scandalized by the failure of the Messiah in whom they had hoped and who now appeared utterly vanquished, humiliated, even after the third day.
Here we have to face the difficult mystery of those people who leave the Church, who, under the illusion of alternative ideas, now think that the Church—their Jerusalem—can no longer offer them anything meaningful and important. So they set off on the road alone, with their disappointment. Perhaps the Church appeared too weak, perhaps too distant from their needs, perhaps too poor to respond to their concerns, perhaps too cold, perhaps too caught up with itself, perhaps a prisoner of its own rigid formulas, perhaps the world seems to have made the Church a relic of the past, unfit for new questions; perhaps the Church could speak to people in their infancy but not to those come of age.
It is a fact that nowadays there are many people like the two disciples of Emmaus; not only those looking for answers in the new religious groups that are sprouting up, but also those who already seem godless, both in theory and in practice.
Faced with this situation, what are we to do?
We need a Church unafraid of going forth into their night. We need a Church capable of meeting them on their way. We need a Church capable of entering into their conversation. We need a Church able to dialogue with those disciples who, having left Jerusalem behind, are wandering aimlessly, alone, with their own disappointment, disillusioned by a Christianity now considered barren, fruitless soil, incapable of generating meaning.”
(HT: Thomas Doran at Catholic World Report)
Please provide the number of people Luther killed, versus the number of tallies for the Catholic church.
They are victims of these pedophiles, and the Church's poor response to them, too.
It must be awful to have large numbers of the general public assume you're a child molester because you're a priest. It's sad. Tragic.
But I also can not even begin to imagine the damage done to the victims of these pedophile priests.
It's bad enough if you've been molested by someone you trusted, but to have it happen with someone who is supposed to be representing God to you.... I pray for the victims.
The Church should have dealt with it, right from the start, in a thorough, timely and unflinching way.
They are victims of these pedophiles, and the Church's poor response to them, too.
It must be awful to have large numbers of the general public assume you're a child molester because you're a priest. It's sad. Tragic.
But I also can not even begin to imagine the damage done to the victims of these pedophile priests.
It's bad enough if you've been molested by someone you trusted, but to have it happen with someone who is supposed to be representing God to you.... I pray for the victims.
The Church should have dealt with it, right from the start, in a thorough, timely and unflinching way.
I hope you fall off on the right side...
A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is an individual experience...If you never get involved in a 'community' you will still be a Christian...You have already got the prize...
If one joins a religious community without an individual, personal relationship with Jesus Christ, you'll just be a member of a religious community on your way to hell...
“So you’re admitting then that Luther took a book that was very old and chose to rewrite it to his preferences,”
You’re accusing Jerome and Luther of rewriting the Holy Scriptures? Can you please show me what verse was allegedly rewritten by either of these two men?
“If Luther didn’t remove them from the Bible - why do you remove them from yours?”
Who says I removed them from mine? I have the Apocrypha right on my computer in both the Vulgate and LXX that I have downloaded. I just understand with Jerome, Athanasius, Pope Gregory, and the Roman Catholic church prior to Trent, that they are not inspired scripture, though they are useful as pious stories for instruction in character. In fact, my versions actually have Maccabees all the way to the 4th book, which your religion does not approve of. It’s you who disagrees historically with the Western church, and if what you say about religion is true, then that is something you will have to answer for.
Most certainly did...The apostles and disciples were protesting your religion right from the get-go...
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
All these people who were taught what you were taught, baptized as you were, ate the Eucharist as you do, prayed to Mary as you do, bowed down to your popes as you do...
They then decided to search out Jesus, trust him as their Savior and left your religion to worship the Jesus of the scriptures...
And then you, constantly calling out for them to, 'come home'...
“The apostles and disciples were protesting your religion”
Right because Lutherans and Calvinists existed in the first century. [[citation needed]]
Or did you mean to admit that you’re actually Nestorians?
“You’re accusing Jerome and Luther of rewriting the Holy Scriptures? Can you please show me what verse was allegedly rewritten by either of these two men?”
I’m accusing Luther of rewriting scripture and peddling it for his own purposes.
“I just understand with Jerome, Athanasius, Pope Gregory, and the Roman Catholic church prior to Trent, that they are not inspired scripture”
If the Catholic church did not believe they were canonical, why did the Vulgate canon (published in the late 4th century) include them?
“It’s you who disagrees historically with the Western church, and if what you say about religion is true, then that is something you will have to answer for.”
Pity for the Church does not originate from there. The ‘Western’ church is the same one that’s adopted homosexuality and all manner of deviance. Why exactly should I look towards them and not Rome? Rome stands firm on the issues of the day while the ‘protestant’ blow away like the sand from a cliff.
“Please provide the number of people Luther killed, versus the number of tallies for the Catholic church.”
So now it’s the number?
I suggest you examine the 40 martyrs and start from there.
Cool, there are believers on the Roman Catholic side, not because of the magisterium but in spite of it. That bible, that witness of the early church, it carries the saving message, right? The sooner we recognize and acknowledge this, the better our relationship with the Lord will be (he does not want those sheep snubbed) and the better our ministry will be towards all Christians.
I don’t understand why having one priest would cause getting rid of the 6:15 daily mass. Does he just want to sleep in those mornings? lolYeah, maybe so... :) It's hard to say.
They came up with a list, but that doesn’t mean the documents themselves did not date from far earlier times, and it doesn’t mean that they possessed the best versions of the manuscripts either. I affirm the written word as it has been handled by conscientious Christians to be robust. It withstands the kind of scribal glosses and errors it has seen in such hands and still remains enveloped in the Holy Spirit power. This means we can USE the Vulgate. This doesn’t mean the Vulgate is the very best version.
King James supposed primacy is also about “chain of hands” as best I understand it. It was very widely used in English speaking Protestant Christendom. It is kind of a Protestant Vulgate.
“I’m accusing Luther”
And why should I care about your silly accusations? I already know they’re false, so that’s good enough for me.
“If the Catholic church did not believe they were canonical”
Why do you deny the words of your own church leaders and cardinals that these books were not to be brought forward for the confirmation of the faith, but to be included only for the purpose of personal edification in morals? I mean it’s not like I haven’t already gone over this dozens of times with you in the past, yet you’ve never once explained who are you to disagree with Saints, Bishops, Cardinals and Popes on what they believed was and was not authoritative.
” The ‘Western’ church is the same one that’s adopted homosexuality and all manner of deviance.”
I was referring to the Latin church, which in those days was the western church. Just so you know there is an Eastern church that claims to be THE Holy and Apostolic church of God on Earth, and they claim, upon the authority of the traditions they say were passed down to them by the Apostles, that your religion is in heresy and apostasy.
Cool, also the bible is plain about being placed in the community, the koinonia, of saints. This is spiritual, and yes a valid Christian could be physically far away from a community. John on Patmos is an example. But when they manage to meet by any method (in person, by letter, by modern communications) they effect God’s desired function of community. John was still one with the rest of the saints as far as those saints were concerned.
Let’s not confuse physical with spiritual community. The physical should be used to serve the spiritual. The tail should be wagged by the dog.
“They came up with a list, but that doesn’t mean the documents themselves did not date from far earlier times, and it doesn’t mean that they possessed the best versions of the manuscripts either.”
If the Catholic church did not have the ‘best available versions of the original manuscripts’, who did?
“King James supposed primacy is also about “chain of hands” as best I understand it.”
It’s primacy is in the same way as if there were a King Obama bible. The crown paid for it, and distributed it throughout England. Catholics were forbidden from celebrating mass. The only ‘chain of hands’ is the connection to the bishops and priests that they killed.
That is why it became common in the English speaking world. I am sure if there were a King Obama version, protestants would flock to that as well.
“Why do you deny the words”
Why do you deny the authority of the magisterium as a whole? The magisterium decided the Canon in the late 4th century. If one Church father has the authority to decide, than the body of the fathers supercedes the individual father.
You claim ‘there was no canon until Trent’, and then, strangely enough, the one they use matches up with the same vulgate produced over one thousand years earlier.
“That bible, that witness of the early church, it carries the saving message, right? The sooner we recognize and acknowledge this”
The authority of the bible comes from the magisterium, not the magisterium from the bible.
“that your religion is in heresy and apostasy.”
They also say the same of you. Either they are right or we are right. Either way it does not help you.
As Christ said you tell a tree by it’s fruit. The homosexual enablers, and abortion adoptioners and contraception crusaders will fade away, for good trees bear good fruit and bad trees, bad fruit.
“Why do you deny the authority of the magisterium as a whole?
Why do you believe in a time traveling Magisterium? As the Magisterium of Trent had a wholly different opinion than the ancients of the west, which declared the apocrypha separate from the rest of the canon. Why do you call Athanasius, Jerome, Rufinus, John of Damascus, your own Popes and Cardinals, and even pre-trent approved translations of the Bible which separated the apocrypha out, and so many other people, liars on what the church practiced in those ages? You can either believe them or call them liars, but you certainly cannot call them wrong in their statements. I care not for what silly sophistry you put forward. You know we’ve been over this dozens of times, and all your false claims won’t phase me.
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