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To: verga
I will leave you to your errors. It is up to the Holy Spirit to guide you now.

What about "your" error concerning the assertion that Luther removed books from the Bible? I noticed no answer to that simple question.

As to what you call my "errors" concerning the Bible, let me remind you that this started with you saying, regarding the recognition of the early Christians of the Inspired writings being delivered to them by the Apostles,:

Some yes, but most NO! That is why they had the councils of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 respectively. To settle exactly which books were and were not.

So, now you cannot leave the subject and instead post reams of the ideas about various "canons" being different from each other and it taking centuries for some "hierarchy" to settle the matter of what was or was not God-breathed Scripture. Let me remind you that all the books that make up what is called the New Testament were done being written by the close of the first century (with the Apostle John's writings). The question should be did the early Christians accept, obey, believe, copy and circulate the writings from the Divinely-inspired writers as they were being created? You'll find that no one denies that these books were ALL received that way. Did some additional writings get thrown in the mix by some? Yes, but that speaks to writings that were useful and edifying versus God-breathed, Divine revelation. That is the difference between them and is why the canon of Scripture gradually came to separate them and know which writings were ordained by God to become the "rule of faith" (what "canon" actually meant).

From http://www.bible-researcher.com/voorwinde1.html:

    After almost 2000 years of church history how can Christians be sure that they have the right Bible? Can we indeed be absolutely certain that we have exactly the right books in the Bible — no more and no less? As our standard of faith and practice can we confidently appeal to the canon of Scripture as a collection of authoritative writings to which nothing can be added and from which nothing can be taken away? What if archaeology uncovered an ancient epistle of Paul or another apostolic writer? Could such a hitherto lost document be added to the canon? While we may dismiss such a question as hypothetical, there are similar questions which are only too painfully relevant in the life of the church today. Can God speak authoritatively today, and if so should such revelation be regarded as on a par with Scripture — or perhaps even be added to Scripture? In other words, is the canon closed? Moreover, whence do we have the information about which books are canonical?

    These are some of the urgent questions to which a thoughtful consideration of our topic will inevitably lead. They are not only issues of abiding theological interest, but can at times also be matters of apologetic importance and even of pressing pastoral concern. Here we touch upon the very basis of our Christian faith and life, and it is vital that these foundations be secure. But how can this be established? How can we espouse a view of Scripture which ipso facto cannot be proved from Scripture itself?

    To begin our investigation we will need to have a sound understanding of the terminology. Our English word "canon" is a loan-word from the Latin canon, which in turn was derived from the Greek kanon. For our purposes it is important to trace the linguistic development of the term. While the Greek word kanon does occur in the New Testament it cannot be translated by "canon" in English. In each case it is more suitably translated "rule" or "standard" (2 Cor.10:13,15,16; Gal.6:16; Phil.3:16). It will be noted that all the occurrences of the word are in Paul's writings, and in none of these instances is he referring to the canon of Scripture. That was to be a much later development. Movement in this direction occurred when "in the second century in the Christian church kanon came to stand for revealed truth, rule of faith." 1 It was not until the fourth century that the church began to refer to the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as ho kanon ("the canon"). A parallel development took place in the history of the Latin term. In ecclesiastical Latin, canon came to mean "a catalogue of sacred writings." 2 The term "canon" as we use it when referring to the canon of Scripture is therefore not a use of the term in its biblical sense, but conforms to ecclesiastical usage from the fourth century onwards. This is also the way the word was used at the time of the Reformation. Particularly in the Reformed confessions the term is used almost exclusively of the "rule," "norm" or "established list" of the Scriptures. 3 In these doctrinal statements it is closely conjoined to such concepts as "inspiration," "authority" and "the regulation, foundation and confirmation of our faith." The idea of normativity comes very much to the forefront.

    This immediately raises an important question. Whence is this normativity derived? What is its basis? These questions are far more difficult for the New Testament than for the Old. In the case of the Old Testament it can be convincingly demonstrated that Jesus placed his infallible seal of approval upon the canon as we now have it (Lk.24:25-27,44-45). His reference to "the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms" reflects the traditional threefold division of the Hebrew canon. On this point there was no quarrel between him and the Pharisees. While the "closedness" of the Old Testament canon at the time of Jesus has become the subject of recent theological debate, 4 it is fair to say that the traditional position has been challenged, but not shaken. Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries agreed on the limits of the Old Testament canon. In the nature of the case such a statement of divine approval is impossible for the New Testament. We have no post hoc pronouncement from Christ to the effect that these 27 books, and these only, are authoritative, inspired and canonical. So how do we proceed? On what basis do we define the canon? On what or whose authority can it be established? How can we rest assured that the right books have been included? These questions have been tackled from a number of different perspectives — theological and historical, a priori and a posteriori, presuppositionally and evidentially. For a most satisfying approach it is perhaps best not to make these contrasts mutually exclusive, not to pit them against one another in an unhelpful way. To get the full picture we cannot divorce the historical evidence from our theological presuppositions. We cannot separate the a priori of our faith from the a posteriori of historical development. To do justice to the largeness of the question we will need to adopt a rather wide approach.

    A. Historical Considerations

    We have already seen that the Greek word kanon was not applied to the New Testament books before the middle of the fourth century. 5 However, this does not mean that the idea of the canon did not exist earlier. Church history, from its beginnings till the end of the fourth century, is characterized by an increasing awareness of the canonicity of its sacred New Testament writings. In the words of Herman Ridderbos, "the history of the Canon is the process of the growing consciousness of the Church concerning its ecumenical foundation." 6 From its earliest days the Christian community was aware that it had a body of writings equal in authority to the Old Testament and equally revelatory in character. 7 However, the recognition of a closed collection of documents above all other literature was a gradual process that was not complete till the end of the fourth century. 8 From the beginning Christians regarded the Jewish canon as distinctively their own. The body of literature which developed in their midst did not replace but supplemented the Jewish canon. Around 200 AD we already find the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament," palaia diatheke and kaine diatheke.

    The New Testament is not to be treated as a book that dropped straight down from heaven, that came senkrecht von oben. Its recognition by the Church was not immediate, but was historically qualified. It is to this process of a gradual and ever more precise canonical awareness that we must now devote our attention.

    1. The New Testament Canon before 140 (a) An Awareness Within the New Testament Itself At times the New Testament writers seemed plainly aware that they or others from amongst themselves were writing Scripture, e.g. 2 Pet.3:16 refers to Paul's letters and "the rest of the Scriptures." Especially the Book of Revelation seems rather self-consciously Scriptural (e.g. 1:3; 22:18,19). But these are mere "hints" compared to the authoritative tone conveyed by certain New Testament concepts. Three terms stand out:

    (i) "Apostle": 9 The concept of "apostle" is defined especially by the idea of authorization, by the transmission of definite powers. The apostles are Christ's representatives (Mt.10:40; cf. Jn.13:20). In a very special and exclusive manner he entrusted them with the preaching of the Gospel. He also endowed them with the Spirit of truth who would guide them into all the truth (Jn.14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15). They were thus the transmitters of revelation (Heb.2:4). The salvation that appeared in Jesus, first proclaimed by the Lord himself, was validly attested to by the apostles.

    (ii) "Witness": The apostles were witnesses of the salvation revealed in Christ. This concept should be understood in a forensic way. The apostles were eyewitnesses and they bear this testimony for the forum of the coming Church and the entire world. This testimony is both oral (preaching) and written (New Testament documents).

    (iii) "Tradition": 10 In the New Testament this is a very authoritative concept. It means 'what has been handed down with authority.' In apostolic times equal significance is given to oral and written proclamation. The New Testament writings "are partially the remains and fixation of a previous oral tradition." 11 The source of the New Testament tradition lies in the apostles, e.g. 1 Cor.15:1-4. Paul both receives and transmits tradition. A personal power is involved here, viz. that of the apostles. They had received authority from Christ to do this. The tradition of which the New Testament speaks is therefore not an unchanneled stream which is then perpetuated as the faith or theology of the Church. It is rather the authoritative proclamation entrusted to the apostles, as the witnesses of Christ and as the foundation of the Church.

    (b) The Apostolic Fathers

    The Apostolic Fathers were more concerned with practical and moral issues than with theological reflection. The works of these early Christian writers contain no formulated doctrine of Scripture or canon, and yet there is much that is suggestive of later development.

    (i) Clement of Rome: Writing in about the year 96 Clement emphasizes the importance of apostolic authority: "The apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus the Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the apostles from Christ. Both, therefore, came of the will of God in good order." 14 His only specific references to the New Testament are from 1 Corinthians and Hebrews. However, there is evidence of his familiarity with a wider range of the canonical materials. Yet Clement has no formal theory of the New Testament canon. While the tradition that derives from Jesus and the apostles is authoritative, it is not authoritative in a specific form.

    (ii) Ignatius of Antioch: Around 115 Ignatius stated that the teachings of the apostles are known through their writings. There is, however, no indication that he viewed the apostolic writings as Scripture parallel to the Old Testament. For him the issue is the authority of the revelation — not its form, whether oral or written.

    (iii) Polycarp (d.155): Like Clement and Ignatius, Polycarp sees an integral unity between the Old Testament and the apostles. However, he moves beyond his predecessors in that for him the importance of the Old Testament has receded in favour of the increased esteem given to the writings of the apostles, particularly Paul.

    (iv) The Epistle of Barnabas (ca.130): Most of this epistle is a polemical foray into interpreting the Old Testament. Barnabas wrestles with the problem of continuity/discontinuity between the Old and New Covenants. Generous use is made of the Old Covenant to show how it points to Christ. Barnabas indicates that as the problems of Old Testament interpretation grew, the Church would become more conscious of its literature as forming a complementary Scripture (the New Testament). He cites Matthew 22:14 with the formula "it is written."

    (v) "Gospel" and "Apostle": According to F.F.Bruce, 15 in the early years of the second century two Christian collections of authoritative documents were current. One was called "The Gospel" (with sub-headings "According to Matthew," etc.). The other was "The Apostle," i.e. the Pauline corpus (with sub-headings "To the Romans," etc.). Soon these two parts were to be connected by the Book of Acts which brought the two collections together. The implications of this were significant, as Bruce explains:

      So long as the fourfold Gospel and the Pauline collection circulated separately, one can hardly speak of a canon, even in embryo. The bringing together of the two collections into one was facilitated by the existence of Acts, the hinge which joined the two. ... Acts provided the central structure of an edifice which now took on the shape of the canon as we have received it.

    So, already at this early stage, the Church was making progress in the recognition of an authoritative collection of Christian books. Just before the middle of the second century something happened to speed up that progress and give it greater precision than had characterized it up until that time.

This article then proceeds to describe what and why the process of establishing a set canon was needed. Marcionism, Gnosticism and Montantism were the chief cause of formally establishing a canon. What should be noted, and which has been my contention all along, is that the final canon of what came to be called the New Testament contained the very books that were always recognized and always will be recognized as from the Holy Spirit. This is how we CAN know that we have the Rule of Faith God wants us to have and His word is our authority.

949 posted on 08/18/2013 6:18:16 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
What about "your" error concerning the assertion that Luther removed books from the Bible? I noticed no answer to that simple question.

this question has been answered many times. Let me make this as clear as possible. Luther removed 7 books form the Bible and parts of 2 more to satisfy his hatred of the Catholic church. He had no authority to do and was following in the man made tradition of a group of Jewish rabbis that did the same for the exact same reason.

The proof of the different canons is there as well of the proof that they contained heretical writings. You want to believe it fine, if not, equally fine.

I am continually amazed at the mental gymnastics that protestants are willing to go through in refusing to admit that the Catholic Church is correct about everything much less anything.

950 posted on 08/19/2013 3:03:10 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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