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To: The_Reader_David

“You’re reading into the passages from John and Colossians the Church’s understanding that was based on 2nd Maccabees.”


This is a pretty irrational conclusion, since you didn’t even attempt to defend 2nd Maccabees as actually inspired. This is like trying to stand without ground, or breath without air. Thus I conclude that you either concede the points I made or can’t refute what I said on the matter. In either case, you want me to believe (in effect) that the Jews concluded that God created everything from nothing from a book they didn’t even believe was inspired, rather than concluding that the book is merely a product of a belief already held, which is the most rational conclusion. After all, the book is an abridged and humble history book, and makes no pretensions of being anything more than that.

As to the truth of creation “from nothing,” so as to silence the Mormons rooting for you, it is understood by “the rabbins, who are legitimate judges in a case of verbal criticism on their own language, are unanimous in asserting that the word bara expresses the commencement of the existence of a thing, or egression from nonentity to entity. It does not in its primary meaning denote the preserving or new forming things that had previously existed, as some imagine, but creation in the proper sense of the term, though it has some other acceptations in other places. The supposition that God formed all things out of a pre-existing, eternal nature, is certainly absurd, for if there had been an eternal nature besides an eternal God, there must have been two self-existing, independent, and eternal beings, which is a most palpable contradiction.”

He continues, expanding on the rest of the words in the sentence as the Jews interpret it,

“The word eth, which is generally considered as a particle, simply denoting that the word following is in the accusative or oblique case, is often understood by the rabbins in a much more extensive sense. “The particle eth,” says Aben Ezra, “signifies the substance of the thing.” The like definition is given by Kimchi in his Book of Roots... “The particle eth (says Buxtorf, Talmudic Lexicon, sub voce) with the cabalists is often mystically put for the beginning and the end, as alpha and omega are in the Apocalypse.” On this ground these words should be translated, “God in the beginning created the substance of the heavens and the substance of the earth,” i.e. the prima materia, or first elements, out of which the heavens and the earth were successively formed. The Syriac translator understood the word in this sense, and to express this meaning has used the word yoth, which has this signification, and is very properly translated in Walton’s Polyglot, Esse, caeli et Esse terrae, “the being or substance of the heaven, and the being or substance of the earth.” St. Ephraim Syrus, in his comment on this place, uses the same Syriac word, and appears to understand it precisely in the same way.”

It doesn’t appear that the Jews are in any way dependent on 2 Maccabees for their conclusions on ex-nihilo.


119 posted on 07/22/2013 5:02:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
But I have defended the view that 2nd Maccabees is inspired Scripture: in my first post that pointed to how the canon of Scripture was fixed: the Council of Carthage, and in concurrence the Sixth Ecumenical Council agreed it is. This is how we Orthodox know which books are in the canon of Scripture and which are not: the "Harps of the Spirit", the Fathers who met in the Holy Ecumenical Councils, whose decisions were received throughout the Church (which is why the councils are titled "Ecumenical", not because they styled themselves as such) told us which are and which aren't.

And of course, the Jews believed in creation ex nihilo "without the support of 2nd Maccabees": that's why the Jewish mother exhorting her sons to bravely face martyrdom as recorded in that book points to creation ex nihilo, and why the Jewish author wrote about this exhortation approvingly. Likewise Christians believed the doctrines of which St. Paul reminded the various recipients of his letters before St. Paul wrote them -- many of the letters are explicitly in the form of reminders of what he had taught them face-to-face. Remember, neither Jews nor traditional Christians place themselves under the constraint of being able to "prove" every doctrine from Scripture -- all have a concept of sacred tradition, which protestants, esp. those who call themselves "Biblical Christians" purport to reject, even while setting up (as is necessary, texts, whether inspired of God or written by mere men, not being self-interpreting) their own traditions. (For example, most "Biblical Christians" who purport to read the Bible "literally" have trouble with taking literally "this is My body" and "this is My blood" in the institution of the Lord's Supper, because their tradition is set up in part in deliberate opposition to the traditions of the Latin church.)

If you have 2nd Maccabees in your Bible, there it is in black and white: creation ex nihilo is a Biblical doctrine. If you don't, you have to rely on rabbinic tradition (to which you've just appealed) or some other interpretative tradition (e.g. derivative from the ancient Christian confessions all of which do have 2nd Maccabees in their canon) to hold the doctrine.

Why Christians would prefer to appeal to the Jewish interpretative tradition which since Our Lord's Incarnation has been denying that Jesus is Lord, denying that Jesus is the Christ, in preference for the tradition of the Church which has proclaimed Him as indeed Our Lord, God and Savior, and which follows Him, is a complete mystery to me, but that is what the preference for the Masorete over the Septuagint as the basis for the canon of the Old Testament amounts to: favoring the judgement of Christ-denying rabbis over the judgement of holy bishops.

121 posted on 07/22/2013 7:57:54 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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