Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
So you reject the Council of Nicaea as ‘paganism’?
Exactly how are they contrary to one another?
“all who wish to belong to the fold of Christ are placed under the dominion of Peter and his successors.”
This works both ways.... :)
“It appears nowhere in Holy Scripture as a command”
Anything that is not commanded by God is sinful?
“It appears nowhere in Holy Scripture as an example”
Anything that doesn’t appear as an example in Holy scripture is sinful?
“It appears nowhere in Holy Scripture as a suggestion”
Anything that does not appear in Holy Scripture as a suggestion is sinful?
“It appears nowhere in Holy Scripture as a Christian practice”
Again - does scripture every claim that ‘unless it’s written down here - that it’s contrary to Christian practice?’
“It appears nowhere in Holy Scripture as a prophecy “
Unless it is prophesied, it’s sinful?
“It appears nowhere in Christian practice from the inception of the Church through 100AD”
Why is the date 100 AD significant?
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Just the fact that you asked that question shows how ill educated about the subject you are.
Completely unScriptural. No need for a saint to do this. In fact the Scriptural revelation to Paul is that the Holy Spirit does this for us.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Holy Spirit even makes intercession for the saints......why would we want the saints to intercede for us? The answer is we wouldn't because there is no need to. The saints even have their hearts searched because they can't "do it in a better way." Praying to the saints is a false belief that they have more power than they actually have and puts others (some perceived saint) in front of God the Father.
Yes, God did chose humans to spread his Word and divulge Scripture via the Holy Spirit.
God often chooses mere human beings to act as "go-betweens" in the communications between God and other human beings, and anyone who would deny that would be foolishly and willfully ignorant (and wrong).
Was that strawman difficult to build? Throughout Scripture, this is demonstrated - thoroughly. However, nowhere does it say anything about praying to a saint (ie an individual in Heaven) - which is the topic at hand.
If God does choose to use mere human beings to speak to us through them (such as in the written books of the Bible), then God is obviously NOT adverse to using mere human being go-betweens in God's communications with other human beings, and actually often chooses to communicate that way (via a go-between human being).
Now, did Jesus say pray to the saints, or did He always say to pray to the Father? As in directly to the Father?
Throughout Scripture, the prophets and Biblical patriarchs prayed either directly to God, or asked a flesh and blood minister (prophet, priest, friend) to pray for them. There is not one Biblical reference of praying to a saint or anyone in the Kingdom of Heaven other than God.
Jesus was given to us to atone for our sins, and to confess/intercede on our behalf. There is no reason for a saint to do this. Why would God send his only begotten Son to intercede for us if a saint's intercession would suffice?
He provided us the law to show us what sin was, to keep His chosen people Holy (through deed, spirituality, diet etc) in preparation for the Messiah, and to show us that we need Him. He provided His prophets and the patriarchs to lead and instruct the people in the flesh. Jesus as a fisher of men, attracted the Apostles to bear Witness and document the Gospel.........there is no need for any saint or go between other than Jesus. Jesus is supposed to be our example of a Christian life.
...and even Jesus deferred that when you pray, pray thus "Our Father..." or "to the Father." Never, 'dear Saint suchandsuch, please ask God to...." Now, we are instructed to pray for one another, pray for the sick, the widow, the fatherless, etc.....but this is our earthly duty and the prayer is to "Our Father," it still doesn't say pray for each other and ask some saint to pray also.
We can pray directly to God the Father, and our only needed or directed intercession siteth on the Right Hand of God the Father in Heaven - the only begotten Son.
Praying to a saint or needing a Heavenly intercession other than Jesus is not Scriptural. In fact, it goes against Biblical teachings that Salvation and Heavenly intercession are through Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.
Matthew 11:25-27 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Pretty apparent that it is only through the Son. The Son knows the Father. The Son reveals the Father. The Father through the Son. Still doesn't ay anything about any saints.
Christianity is not a chose your own adventure novel where you get to pick the wording and arrange things to mean what you want.
First, you’ve added no evidence that supports the truth claim you’ve made.
Second, I picked 100 AD because if it has not shown up anywhere by then, it isn’t part of Apostolic Tradition - meaning it was not passed as truth by the Apostles to the next generation.
I suggested bigger shoes for you because after a couple thousand years without a good pizza, the Saints above will be quite hungry.
All true believers are saints in true Christianity.
The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.”
Acts 9:13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem.
Acts 9:32 Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
Acts 26:10 And I did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
And he was called Satan also.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get you behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you consider not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
That is after all what He commanded isn’t it. Who is Jesus the intercessor and mediator too again?
You can't be serious. Nowhere in the New Testament, is the Christian gathering called a synagogue. Deacons (instituted in Acts 7) had NOTHING to do with hte synagogues. They were and are servants who minister to the needs of the believers.
A text out of context is a .....".
Yeah, that’s why it was James at the council in Jerusalem who said: Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is,
A “Christian mystic” no less! Oy vey!
“I picked”
I see. So you’re a prophet now?
Odd that the Bishop of Jerusalem would host the Council of Jerusalem.
Isn’t it Christ who says, “whom much is given, much more expected?”
Actually, being Orthodox, not Roman Catholic, I don't care to defend that church. Bishops married until the point in later centuries where the threat of corruption due to power hungry bishops being able to will property they controlled to their kids. At that point, the Church (Eastern for the most part -- Rome was more of a backwater) decided that restricting the bishops to monastics quenched that problem.
Since the Eastern Church has married priests (I am very glad for that -- we even have titles for them) I think the policy on bishops should be reversed but that would take a council.
Funny, in all your citations, none of them use the word ‘all’.
This wouldn’t be just yet another protestant interpolation?
“All true believers are saints in true Christianity”
“At that point, the Church (Eastern for the most part — Rome was more of a backwater) decided that restricting the bishops to monastics quenched that problem.”
When did this occur?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.