Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
“he rejected Tobith, Judith...because Jews also did not regard them”
Yet the Jews DID regard them as authoritative in the LXX.
Incoming......
Great post, BTW.
That.
“Yet the Jews DID”
As is usual with your trollish method of debate. You just reply “yes it is!’ or “no it isn’t!” with no evidence whatsoever, and ignoring the evidence that has been shown to you time and time again.
ekklēsian - Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
“Look at Lot - he pleaded with YHWH to save the people of his city if enough righteous were found.”
I believe it was Abraham who pleaded with YHWH.
There's worse ways to waste one's time.
We may both be a little right and a little wrong. He said he came to establish the truth, for those who can hear the truth.
Of course, he’s the God of the living, but NO where in the Bible do you find anyone praying to someone who has gone on before them Read our Bible!
where does the Bible say we should pray to anyone but God?
You received no replies, so let me will add this:
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To substantiate that PTDS is Scriptural, one needs to, from the Bible (and basically in order of importance) |
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Provide just one example, among the multitude of prayers in the Bible, where anyone besides heathen (Jer. 44:19) prayed to or addressed anyone else in heaven but the Lord.* |
Example, descriptions, instructions. See Bible prayers here Gen. 15:2; 17:18; 18:23; 18:23-32; 24:12-14; 32:9-12; Ex. 25:22; 32:11-13; 33:12-19; Num. 6:23-26; 10:35-36; 11:11-16; 12:13-14; 14:13-19; 27:15-18; Dt. 3:23-25; 9:25; 9:26-29; 21:7-9; 26:5-10; Josh. 7:7-9; Jdg 6:13; 6:15; 6:15-17; 6:36-37; 6:39; 13:8; 16:8; 1Ki. 3:5-61; 17:20-21; 18:25-26; 18:27-37; 19:4; 2Chr. 6:40; 14:11; 20:6-12; 30:18-19; Neh. 1:4,5; 1:4-11; 4:4-5; 9:5-38; Ps. 4:1; 5:3; 6:9; 17:1; 35:13; 39:12; 42:8; 54:2; 55:1; 61:1; 64:1; 65:2; 66:19,20; 69:13; 72:15; 80:4; 84:8; 86:1,6; 86:6; 88:2,13; 90:1; 102:1,17; 109:4,7; 141:2,5; 142:1; 143:1; Prov. 15:8,29; 28:8;
Mat. 6:9-13; 11:25-27; 17:21; 21:22; 26:39; Lk. 1:9,13; 6:12; 18:10-13; 19:46; 23:30; 23:34; 23:46; Jn.11:41-42; 17:1-22; 17:1-26; Acts 1:14,24-25; 3:1; 6:4; 9:6; 10:2,31; 12:5; 16:13,16; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; 13:20-21; Rev. 6:16-16; 22:2022:20 |
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Provide one place where exhortations, commands or instruction or descriptions on prayer directed believers to pray to departed saints or angels. ("i.e. "After this manner pray, Our mother, who art in heaven...").. |
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Show where any insufficiency exists in Christ regarding immediacy, ability, or compassion that would require or advantage another intercessor in heaven between Christ and man, besides the Holy Spirit. (Ex. 25:22; Eph. 2:18; Heb. 2:18; 4:15,16; 7:25; 10:19-22; etc.) |
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Show where believers in Christ do not have direct access to God in heaven, that having “boldness to enter into the holiest” (Heb. 10:19) means one may choose to meet a type of secretary rather than in Christ directly having access by one Spirit unto the Father.** (Eph. 2:18) |
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Show where departed souls in heaven are taking prayer requests addressed to them. |
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Show where the departed are given the Divine attribute of omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer. (Ps. 65:2; 139:4; Prov. 15:3) |
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Provide where any communication between believers on earth and heavenly beings besides God took place apart from a personal visitation, either by men being caught up to heaven or by angels coming to earth. (Jdg. 13; Mk. 9:2-9; Rev. 4:1ff;) |
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Show where anyone else is called "Queen of heaven" other than Jer 44:17 (“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven”), who was a heavenly object of devotion and prayer. |
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If believers can pray to the departed saints for help in their Christian life, then show why they cannot call upon saints for salvation, and where the Bible supports that. |
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Show where another basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and is contrary to any actual need.*** |
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"O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come." (Psalms 65:2) "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. {15} For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. {16} Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {20} By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {21} And having an high priest over the house of God; {22} Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:19-22) "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. " (Galatians 4:6) |
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Not if it’s contrary to what scripture teaches and against the instructions of Christ.
Matthew 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus
Jews wrote the LXX. You contest this? Yes or no.
So, it’s the Holy Church of Cynical Bear? Where will I find it in a phone book?
Or are you saying that any will do? If any do - then I don’t see how you can exclude the Catholic church.
Better read the next few verses. God directed their attention back to Jesus didn’t He. They were not allowed to communicate with Moses and Elijah.
Bible says he came to build the Church with St. Peter as the head of His church here on earth.
Oh brother...Scripture that's not authorative...Now that takes the cake...
[remember to check back and read Steelfish's evidence of Christians praying to departed saints before 100 AD ]
bump
“Jews wrote the LXX. You contest this? Yes or no.”
Here are the facts as I already said, for the second time, Troll:
“Last I checked, I already corrected you by pointing out that the myth of the creation of the LXX only includes the translation of the Books of Moses as being sanctioned by the Jewish authorities. The rest was translated or put together at unknown times, by unknown people, and the only copies we have of the LXX today are Christian copies with varying books within them starting in the 4th or 5th centuries. But by then we already had Jerome giving his historical reasons for what is and isn’t scripture, and lots of explanations for why some books are included, though they are not actually considered scripture. For example, the Epistle of Barnabas was considered useful for edification, but not for confirmation of doctrine. Maccabees was included, but was called by Pope Gregory “non canonical,” but “useful for the edification of the people.”
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