Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[NYer]

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

• “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?

[Heart-Rest]

"uh... Someone hasn't studies very hard? I seem to remember a little something called the COUNTER Reformation from history class."

What contradictions to earlier Church teachings do you claim you see in the Counter-Reformation?

(Please cite specifically what you perceive to be actual contradictory Church teachings, not contradictory behaviors by sinful human individuals, which pertain to an altogether different matter than contradictory doctrines and teachings.)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“You also try to equate the non-unity of personal beliefs and practices with diunity in the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is really only ONE set of real, true, official Catholic teachings. How individual Catholics relate to those official teachings is merely a reflection of their own choices, but does NOT reflect disunity in the Catholic teachings themselves.”

Just how effective is teaching that people ignore? Or scorn?

[Heart-Rest]

"Then, according to your interpretation of the verses Elsie posted, it is the act of "not sinning" that saves a person? Salvation in Heart-Rest's theology is that we save ourselves by our own works - if we are "good" we go to heaven, if we are "bad" we go to hell. Right?"

Wrong boatbums. The two theologies I'm talking about there are two of the opposing Protestant theologies which completely and irreconcilably conflict with each other, and are actually diametrically opposed to each other.

(This pits Presbyterians, Congregationalists, various "Reformed" churches, some Baptists, etc., AGAINST Methodists, Lutherans, certain other Baptists (Free Will Baptists, for example), Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God, certain other Pentecostal churches, etc., regarding one of the most important questions any Christian can ask -- do they have "eternal security"/"perseverance of the saints"/a "once saved, always saved" unbreakable protection, or can they really, truly lose their salvation.)

If you genuinely want to know my own theology, a great place for you to start would be here at these two links:

   Catholic Scripture Study Bible RSV-CE

   The Catechism of the Catholic Church

(Or try these online links):

  The Bible (online)

  The Catechism of the Catholic Church (online)

[Heart-Rest]

"Why anyone would want to pray to a dead saint is beyond me. God is in control of this earth. He is the one who saves and keeps us. All of us dead or alive."

So when you see a thread on this Free Republic web site which asks for other FReepers to pray for them or for their loved ones, you would be inclined to just tell that other FReeper to buzz off and stop asking for other people's prayers, and to only go pray to God directly themselves?

[Heart-Rest]

"If Bergoglio decided to banish the Pauline epistles from the Bible what would your response be? Does he possess that authority?"

No.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Or what if a council were held, let’s call it Vatican III, and the council decreed that the canon no longer included the Genesis because it’s so controversial and archaic in light of modern science. Would they have that infallible authority? Would you accept that decision?"

Again, they cannot do that. An infallible teaching of the Church will never contradict a previous infallible teaching of the Church. That is one of the special protections God has provided for His Catholic Church.

You might just as well ask yourself, "What if the moon fell on our heads?" It never has, and never will -- don't worry yourself needlessly about that.

A similar kind of outlandish question would be "What if all the Protestants in the whole world started chanting the same chant that some pro-abortion supporters were chanting the other day down in Texas: "Hail Satan! Hail Satan! Hail Satan!"? You should really not worry about things like that either -- they simply will not happen (not even for those Protestants who are also very rabidly pro-abortion).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church infallible? Do you accept it in full? After all it was prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under the direction of then Cardinal Ratzinger and approved personally by Pope John Paul II."

For the answer to that question in it's fullest form, please read this entire web page:

   Frequently Asked Questions about the Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Heart-Rest]

"Still no answer from any Protestant regarding the authority that acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture"

- - -

"I both answered your question and then illustrated it appropriately. God is the ONLY infallible authority that exists in heaven or on earth. The authority you are clacking is as infallible as Balaam’s donkey. ...and ranks up there with the rooster who believes his crowing causes the sun to rise. "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well then, let's get specific -- did God proclaim which writings belonged in the "New Testament" in a booming voice from the mountain?    Or, did God use a non-human animal (like your ass) to proclaim which writings belonged in the "New Testament"?    Or, did God actually choose, in His Holy, Sovereign Will, to simply use human members of His Church (some of God's children) to proclaim (in official Church Councils which were guided by the Holy Spirit) which writings belonged in the "New Testament", those Councils being held after all the books of the Bible had long since been completely finished being written?

(Am going out right now, but will try to check back for a response later if I can.)

[Heart-Rest]

"Just how effective is teaching that people ignore? Or scorn?"

Didn't many people ignore and scorn the sacred teachings directly from Jesus Christ, and didn't they also mock Him about those sacred teachings?

(I have to go out now, but will try to check back later for you response if I can.)

[Iscool]

God did not deem it necessary to document all the prayers they made, or He would have had all that information included somewhere in those New Testament "books".)

How hypocritical is that??? Yes, that is true...Just the same as if any of your unbiblical 'Tradition' had any worth, it too would have been in the scriptures...

There are many prayers in the scriptures...But more importantly, the bible shows us 'how' to pray, not what to pray...And, it shows us to pray directly to Jesus...NOT to any dead people who may or may not be in heaven, ergo, one of your so-called Saints...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Didn’t many people ignore and scorn the sacred teachings directly from Jesus Christ, and didn’t they also mock Him about those sacred teachings?”

You do know that the ones that mocked or scorned we’re not believers?

Are you arguing that the members of the Roman Catholic Church are not believers either?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

God always uses fallible humans when he can’t find a faithful donkey!

Yet they bray louder than the donkey and proclaim themselves infallible!

[daniel1212]

As often said, in Rome's circularity, having infallibly declared she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, this renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

[daniel1212]

And there are more than that, while it was not traditions that the Lord established His claims upon, and opened the understanding of the disciples to, (Lk. 24:44,45) but the then-existing Scriptures, with additions to them being established upon conformity to them.

[metmom]

However, the Protestant denominations DO have major, irreconcilable differences in their actual, true, official teachings.

Humor us then. Post an example.

And hten explain to us why or how that makes a difference in the salvation of the individual believer.

[CynicalBear]

That has to be the weakest reasoning for praying to those who have left this life I have ever seen. Numerous accounts of God being against contacting anyone other than Christ who has left this life and the best you can come up with is that? Talk about man made doctrine. That has to be one.

[CynicalBear]

>> Like I told you daniel1212, the source you used is from a dissident Jesuit priest (Father Felix) who is strongly against many of the teachings of the Catholic Church.<<

Is he still a priest who represents the RCC to his congregation?

[SumProVita]

“Let us pray for one another...because this ONENESS is not something we humans can achieve....apart from the grace of God.”

As is true of a life that honors God.

_____________________________

I agree with you again. We can do nothing without His grace, but with it, everything is possible. And lives that honor God will be evident by their fruits. ;-)

“...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

May God bless you and yours aMorePerfectUnion...and may He bring all Christians to unity and ONENESS...as He and the Father are ONE.

THAT would be a great witness to this world.

[metmom]

Again, they cannot do that. An infallible teaching of the Church will never contradict a previous infallible teaching of the Church. That is one of the special protections God has provided for His Catholic Church.

OK

Try this one on for size.

The Catholic teaching that outside the Catholic church, the Roman one at that, there is no salvation.

This is a good place to start.

• Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

• Fifth Lateran Council: Moreover, since subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful, as we are taught by the testimony of both sacred scripture and the holy fathers, and as is declared by the constitution of pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, also our predecessor, which begins Unam sanctam, we therefore...renew and give our approval to that constitution... Fifth Lateran CouncilSession 11, 19 December 1516,
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum18.htm

• Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence: "The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that..not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart `into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”— Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (Seventeenth Ecumenical Council), Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441 (Florentine style), [considered infallible by some]

• The COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE under Pope John XXIII condemned the proposition of Wycliff that “It is not necessary for salvation to believe that the Roman church is supreme among the other churches.” [inasmuch as it would deny the primacy of the supreme pontiff over the other individual churches.] — Session 8—4 May 1415;
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/CONSTANC.HTM

• Pius 9, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore: “Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff..”
-http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

• St. Thomas Aquinas: It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: “Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve.” And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals [Greeks] says: “The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter’s confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him.” — St. Thomas Aquinas, Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36
http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm#b38

• St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke: "The Lord severed the Jewish people from His kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church. Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." — St. Ambrose, "Expl. of Luke", ch.7, 91-95; PL 15; SS, vol. II, p. 85, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 2: "Those Who Reject Christ's Church are Anti-Christian").http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic4chp2.html

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

[daniel1212]

You list a bunch of Old Testament figures who came to be recognized by the Church as saints (of course after Jesus redeemed them on His cross), and seem to imply that since there is no mention in the New Testament of anyone asking those saints to pray for them, that means that nobody ever did ask them to pray for them....The Gospels end with the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus, and it was not until then that those Old Testament figures were redeemed, and their souls went to heaven.

This is an argument from silence is speculative, and presumes the church can make doctrines out of such, while PTDS is also contrary to the abundance of examples and teaching on who prayer to heaven is directed to, and the position and sufficiency of Christ.

And it also presumes God would not include at least one example of PTDS or in instructions on who to direct prayer to heaven to, as befits doctrine and such a common practice.

God did not deem it necessary to document all the prayers they made

This simply an extension of your weak and invalid argument from silence, as failure to provide all the prayers is not a problem, as we have an abundance of prayers, none of which support PTDS, but support praying directly to God .

Does the fact that you do not see any such references whatsoever to the "Our Father" in the rest of the New Testament mean that none of those Christians in the early Church were praying it?

Invalid argument, as contrary to the Mass, the Lord did not say to pray this redundantly, but "after this manner pray ye," and which is what we see the church and persons doing, not to "our mother who art in Heaven," etc..

[metmom]

That has to be the weakest reasoning for praying to those who have left this life I have ever seen. Numerous accounts of God being against contacting anyone other than Christ who has left this life and the best you can come up with is that? Talk about man made doctrine. That has to be one.

Ah, the old, *If it doesn't say it didn't happen, we can presume that it did and teach it as truth* meme.

Here are some examples of prayers that Paul prayed or prayed for other believers about.

Ephesians 1:15-21 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power towardus who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Philippians 1:9-11 9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Colossians 1:9-12 9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

Not much like the prayers to saints. Or reciting the Lord's Prayer as if it was an incantation as when you have to recite so many *Our Father's* and *Hail Mary's* as part of your penance after you have gone to confession. If you don't, your sins will not have been forgiven and you can't take communion.

[boatbums]

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

I did a little digging to see where else in Scripture Paul may have been thinking when he wrote this reprimand to the Corinthians and to all of us. I found this:

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

That sounds right. Do you think so, too? In other words, we can't possibly know ALL there is to know, nor could our brains process it all, but what we ARE accountable for is what God has revealed to us in His holy word. The New Living Translation puts it this way:

The LORD our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.