Skip to comments.
Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^
| July 11, 2012
| Steve Ray
Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?
A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…
Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints cant do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!
Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?
An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the dead in Christ are those saints who have physically died. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thess 4:16).
THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE JESUS ALONE DOCTRINE. From some peoples point of view, people who have died are classified as dead saints, who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people dont want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, JESUS ALONE fails. If the so-called dead saints do anything then it is not JESUS ALONE, but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called dead saints are in fact not dead, but alive with God.
Dead or in paradise?
HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly dead saints who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no dead saint because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants
HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says Jesus is the god of the living. However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; He is not God of the dead but of the living.
- “God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled” (Mk 12: 26-27).
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as dead saints.
Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?
WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than dead saints who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called dead saints; not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.
SORRY LEONARD
YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument. He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun (Eccles 9:6).
When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the persons soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?
How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?
Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet (Kings 13:20-21).
Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It cant be much clearer than that!
The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ
JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE DEAD SAINTS. Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.
“Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?
This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that dead saints cant do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.
So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,041-1,060, 1,061-1,080, 1,081-1,100 ... 1,621-1,636 next last
To: bkaycee
Yes, but according to Rome this is not “magically.” And if Scripture actually substantiated PTDS in Heaven, versus only and always directly to God , then we would hold to it, as with other major Scriptural doctrines.
1,061
posted on
07/17/2013 10:17:15 AM PDT
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: metmom
“Then why do Catholics quote Scripture to give the Church and Peter their authority?”
Catholics quote scripture to prove that Jesus Christ gave St. Peter this authority and founded his Church.
Again - it is not the bible that grants them this authority, but Christ himself. The bible - as an accurate testimony of Christ’s teachings serves as our witness to Christ’s mission on earth. Part of which includes the disciples and the founding the Church with the Apostles, Pentecost, and the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts, etc.
Again, all these things happened before even the first Gospel was written.
1,062
posted on
07/17/2013 10:17:25 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: NYer
1,063
posted on
07/17/2013 10:17:51 AM PDT
by
AliVeritas
(Pray/Penance. Isa 5:18-21 Isa 10:1-3 Prayers up Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4)
To: JCBreckenridge; ShadowAce; boatbums
This is why chopping books because it teaches things you dont like (as Luther did), is so corrosive. Which Luther did not do, as has been demonstrated time and again and even on this very threads.
Doesn't the Catholic church version of the Bible include in the Ten Commandments the prohibition against bearing false witness?
1,064
posted on
07/17/2013 10:18:02 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: metmom
Does the bible teach that the Saints cannot pray for us?
1,065
posted on
07/17/2013 10:18:10 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: daniel1212; Heart-Rest; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; ...
The Supreme Authority for Catholics is Almighty God. That's interesting because we have other sources posted here that say the supreme authority for Catholics is either the pope or the "Church".
1,066
posted on
07/17/2013 10:19:55 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: JCBreckenridge
The Bible doesn’t even teach sainthood as the Catholic church practices it.
In Scripture the term *saint* is used to identify ANY believer, not those canonized by the RCC. There is no precedent for that teaching or practice.
1,067
posted on
07/17/2013 10:22:14 AM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: JCBreckenridge
Catholics quote scripture to prove ... By your own words you are saying that you use circular reasoning, so why should we believe anything the Church has to say about anything?
The bible was written by the Church to prove the Church is the only way to salvation. Joseph Smith wrote the same things.
As soon as you claimed the RCC is more authoritative than God, you lost all respect, and entered into cult status. I have long suspected that the RCC was a cult, but this just cements it.
1,068
posted on
07/17/2013 10:22:56 AM PDT
by
ShadowAce
(Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
To: metmom
“IOW, when the pope was infallibly speaking”
When was the doctrine of papal infalliability promulgated?
Which declarations by the pope are considered part of papal infalliability?
“the infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church’s in order to be infallible.”
This is important. Papal infalliability is an extension of the infalliability of the Magisterium as a whole.
“infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree”
Tome to Flavian”, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
2.Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
3.Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;[70]
4.Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
5.Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
6.Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
7.Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
There’s the list.
1,069
posted on
07/17/2013 10:24:45 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: metmom
“In Scripture the term *saint* is used to identify ANY believer, not those canonized by the RCC.”
Then you should be able to cite the scripture passage that says that all believers are saints.
1,070
posted on
07/17/2013 10:25:39 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: ShadowAce
“By your own words you are saying that you use circular reasoning, so why should we believe anything the Church has to say about anything?”
Ok.
So you believe the Church is wrong.
If, in fact, the Church came before and wrote Sacred Scripture, AND the Church cannot be trusted in anything that they wrote
THEN - from both premises, Sacred Scripture cannot be trusted. This is my point. You cannot divorce Sacred Scripture from Tradition.
“As soon as you claimed the RCC is more authoritative than God”
Do you believe that the Apostles were members of the Roman Catholic church?
1,071
posted on
07/17/2013 10:28:14 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: ShadowAce
“So—it’s only an accurate witness. It’s not actually the Word of God.”
If Scripture is a lie then it has no spiritual authority whatsoever. Scripture has spiritual authority as it IS an accurate account of Jesus and his ministry.
1,072
posted on
07/17/2013 10:30:58 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: metmom
“Denominations dont save so belonging to one is meaningless.”
So - do you actually attend church on Sundays? If so, where do you go?
1,073
posted on
07/17/2013 10:34:52 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
To: JCBreckenridge; metmom
Again, I notice youre still avoiding citations of Lumen Gentium. ;) One would think that if one wants to know what the Catholic church teaches one would consult a Catechism. Don't forget at various times the momanator has claimed to be Catholic and/ or attended a Catholic Church so she knows EVERTHING about Catholicism
1,074
posted on
07/17/2013 10:39:56 AM PDT
by
verga
(A nation divided by Zero!)
To: JCBreckenridge
Do you believe that the Apostles were members of the Roman Catholic church? Why would I? The RCC didn't exist then.
1,075
posted on
07/17/2013 10:44:18 AM PDT
by
ShadowAce
(Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
To: JCBreckenridge
Scripture has spiritual authority as it IS an accurate account of Jesus and his ministry. An accurate account is not Scriptural authority. They are not equal.
1,076
posted on
07/17/2013 10:45:31 AM PDT
by
ShadowAce
(Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
To: Iscool
Exactly - our faith stands on the the power of God as revealed through scripture.
1,077
posted on
07/17/2013 10:45:38 AM PDT
by
stonehouse01
(Equal rights for unborn women)
To: JCBreckenridge
If, in fact, the Church came before and wrote Sacred Scripture... That's a mighty big IF--and one I do not accept.
1,078
posted on
07/17/2013 10:46:35 AM PDT
by
ShadowAce
(Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
To: JCBreckenridge
“No, its not. Its all part of the same doctrine. You should examine the doctrine first before attacking its origins.”
Post your evidence that they can and do hear your prayers.
I’m listening...
1,079
posted on
07/17/2013 10:47:28 AM PDT
by
aMorePerfectUnion
( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus)
To: aMorePerfectUnion
“Post your evidence that they can and do hear your prayers.”
Seriously. Go read the doctrine. You say they are separate things, they are not.
1,080
posted on
07/17/2013 10:50:03 AM PDT
by
JCBreckenridge
("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 1,041-1,060, 1,061-1,080, 1,081-1,100 ... 1,621-1,636 next last
Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson