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To: Mr Rogers

The words “IN HIM” don’t change the meaning one whit. It just means God and only God can predestine salvation. Not individual will through the a personal work of belief. If faith is an act of will then those who come to faith DO have a reason to boast. I could boast that given the same opportunity as every one else I chose to come to faith and they didn’t. If God decides then Paul’s words make sense, there is nothing to boast about.


93 posted on 07/13/2013 6:55:03 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

The words IN HIM are crucial. Faith places us IN HIM, and IN HIM we have a certain finish. Calvin ignores those two words because he does not understand them. In a tribal society - like the Jews - those words were clear. All the members of a tribe are considered part of the originator of the tribe. That is why in Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, Jacob and Esau were mentioned - although they had been dead for 1500 years.

We are chosen IN CHRIST. Those words are important and ahve meaning.

“That verse makes my point - coming to belief is “the work of God for you”.”

Jesus was asked “What must we do to carry out the work of God?” What must we do? And if Calvin was right, Jesus should have given the same answer that Paul gave in Acts 16: “You can do nothing! God does it all!”

Except that is not what Paul replied, either. Believing and faith is always something we DO in scripture, not something done TO us.

Again, consider the example of healing:

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.

Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

Jesus didn’t heal them to give them faith, he healed in response to the faith they had. Faith is always an act we do in response to someone else. Faith is defined as “confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.”

Faith is contrasted with works, but is not a work itself:

“Now how does all this affect the position of our ancestor Abraham? Well, if justification were by achievement he could quite fairly be proud of what he achieved—but not, I am sure, proud before God. For what does scripture say about him? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness’.

4-8 Now if a man works his wages are not counted as a gift but as a fair reward. But if a man, irrespective of his work, has faith as righteousness, then that man’s faith is counted as righteousness, and that is the gift of God. This is the happy state of the man whom God accounts righteous, apart from his achievements, as David expresses it: ‘Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin’.”

Note that Abraham believed God. It doesn’t say God gave Abraham belief. Abraham believed God. We have a choice to make - to believe God, or not. It is not a work we produce, but a response we make to God. There are 31,103 verses in a Bible. Not one calls saving faith a gift, something God does TO man. Saving faith is always something we do in response to God - but it is not described as a “work”.


95 posted on 07/13/2013 7:43:12 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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