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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Death means alienation that leads to eternal death. But if it meant incapable of responding to the grace of God, revealed by God to man, then Jesus was lying when he called on people to repent. Under Calvin’s thought, Jesus was calling people to repent when they either A) would do so irresistibly, or B) could not do so - all predetermined by Jesus.

If whosoever means ‘only the few I make do so’, then Jesus lied again in John 3. But he did not lie, because his call to repent and believe was something the hearers could do.

Think of the example of healing:

Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
Luk 17:19 And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

This does not mean there is no such thing as election, or predestination. But just as the Jews were chosen in Israel, we are chosen in Christ. That is the part Calvin dropped out of his systematic theology - IN CHRIST.

A short discussion of corporate election - election in line with how election was used in the Old Testament - can be found here:

“Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]”

http://evangelicalarminians.org/a-concise-summary-of-the-corporate-view-of-election-and-predestination/


77 posted on 07/12/2013 7:19:06 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Mr Rogers

Most of your statements are pretty close in nature to what the other fellow wrote, who I responded to (thinking he was you to begin with, since I didn’t notice who pinged me). Please see my reply to him for a reply to this post.

Though there is one thing I can respond to that is unique in your reply:

“As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect.”

This isn’t what the scripture teaches at all regarding election. It teaches that whom God predestinates, He also calls, and whom He calls, He justifies, and whom He justifies, He glorifies (Romans 8). There is no conditional nature to this election. There is no “those He calls, and responds to the call and is justified, he glorifies and elects.” Election is always spoken of as preceding the actual act of faith, and actually being the work of God from start to finish.

These replies from your website are just confused attempts at attempting to make scripture that clearly disagrees with them make sense, but it doesn’t make sense.


83 posted on 07/12/2013 8:46:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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