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To: unlearner

“God has chosen the willing.”


There aren’t any:

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

“He has not willed the chosen.”


He has willed the chosen:

Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

And the chosen do not choose Christ, they are chosen by Christ.

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

“When Paul asked “who has resisted His will?” He was not making an argument for that statement, he was rather pointing out the foolishness of that view.”


No, he was responding to the outrage that his previous statements cause (like the outrage you feel right now when we say it).

Here’s the sentence:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

And here is what precedes it:

Rom 9:11-18 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Is God hardening anyone or no? Did God choose Jacob before neither child had done good or evil or no? And if Paul was just ridiculing his own ideas... why is there outrage? “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” Why would they say “Why doth he yet find fault?” if Paul did not just get done teaching the Gospel of election, which asserts that no one can come to God unless God gives it to him?

“And Hebrews warns of the possibility of our failing in relation to God’s grace.”


From Calvin’s commentary on Hebrews 6

“But here arises a new question, how can it be that he who has once made such a progress should afterwards fall away? For God, it may be said, calls none effectually but the elect, and Paul testifies that they are really his sons who are led by his Spirit, (Romans 8:14;) and he teaches us, that it is a sure pledge of adoption when Christ makes us partakers of his Spirit. The elect are also beyond the danger of finally falling away; for the Father who gave them to be preserved by Christ his Son is greater than all, and Christ promises to watch over them all so that none may perish. To all this I answer, That God indeed favors none but the elect alone with the Spirit of regeneration, and that by this they are distinguished from the reprobate; for they are renewed after his image and receive the earnest of the Spirit in hope of the future inheritance, and by the same Spirit the Gospel is sealed in their hearts. But I cannot admit that all this is any reason why he should not grant the reprobate also some taste of his grace, why he should not irradiate their minds with some sparks of his light, why he should not give them some perception of his goodness, and in some sort engrave his word on their hearts. Otherwise, where would be the temporal faith mentioned by Mark 4:17? There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up.
And by this bridle the Lord keeps us in fear and humility; and we certainly see how prone human nature is otherwise to security and foolish confidence. At the same time our solicitude ought to be such as not to disturb the peace of conscience. For the Lord strengthens faith in us, while he subdues our flesh: and hence he would have faith to remain and rest tranquilly as in a safe haven; but he exercises the flesh with various conflicts, that it may not grow wanton through idleness.”

There is no reason to suppose that the damned cannot share in the gifts of God and yet still, ultimately, fall away. The Lord tells of those who would say to Him “Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonderful works in your name? Have we not cast out devils in your name? And prophesied in your name?” (Matt 7:22, paraphrased). And yet Christ’s response isn’t “I knew you until you rejected me.” He replies, “I never knew you.” From the beginning, they were unknown, they were never “of us.” As John explains, they “must leave us” because they were “not of us.” Not that they were “once of us, but now cease to be”:

1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

To compare, the sheep of God are always known by the Shepard:

Joh 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They can never fall away nor fail to be found:

Joh 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

“Receiving means receiving.”


Receiving means receiving the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, not through your own mental knowledge or particular holiness in “seeking God” (there are none who seek), but through a direct revelation by God Himself:

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Co_12:3 ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And unless God reveals Himself to you, unless God gives it to you from above to believe, you can never believe:

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice, also, that the Jews here did not receive it from the Father and then rejected. They never “received” it at all, and that is why they did not believe. The fact that some receive it and others don’t is fatal to your position.

“Anyone who enters Heaven will give God 100 percent of the credit,”


By definition, if you claim that you are persevering in faith, then you get credit for being that rare person who ‘seeks after God’ and sticks with Him, unlike everyone else.


29 posted on 06/07/2013 7:53:20 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

31 posted on 06/07/2013 7:54:06 PM PDT by narses
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“There aren’t any.”

Until there are. All are sinners until they are justified. All seek not until they do. All are dead until they are given life.

Human will exists according to the passage we are discussing. By it we can choose to do something or sometimes merely desire to do something without doing it.

“He has willed the chosen.”

Yes. His will is done. My meaning is that He has not forced our will to change. Nothing in these passage indicates that.

“The chosen do not choose Christ.”

It may be that describing a willing heart as choosing is not correct. The Bible does teach making a choice to serve God, but repentance may be less than a choice and merely a willingness to turn from sin to God.

“Whosoever will may come.” I cannot prove this is a choice, but it is something for which we are held accountable which means is under our control and responsibility.

It is also clear that Christ used figures of speech for emphasis. So He says “he who believes in Me, believes not in Me...” in John 12:44. In context, the gospel demands a response of either faith or unbelief, repentance or hardness of heart.

So, returning to my point, the gospel is for all. The command to repent is to all men everywhere. Those who are disobedient and remain unrepentant do so of their own volition and are thus responsible for their judgment. God has afforded to them an offer of life which they have refused.

But those who hear and repent are granted to believe and be saved. This is a gift from God with no merit on our part.

You argue that the answer to the question of who has resisted His will is no one, but that is not true. Some quit resisting His will and believe. Some continue resisting His will.

Apparently Stephen was not informed on your position on this subject as he proclaimed “you always resist the Holy Spirit” in Acts 7:51. Or what about Christ proclaiming His willingness to save Jerusalem but did not because they were unwilling in Matthew 23:37? Or what about Christ denouncing the lawyers who refused to enter the kingdom and hindered others as in Luke 11:52?

Christ again ties the issue to our will when He said that anyone who is willing to do God’s will recognizes His doctrine is from God in John 7:17?

God’s will is for people to be saved. When people yield or submit their will to His, they are able to receive the message in faith. When people resist the word of God, His Spirit and His grace through continued pride and stubbornness, they cannot believe and do not receive the gift of salvation. If people abide in unbelief they are condemned to hell. If they do not continue in unbelief they are saved.

God did not say He hated Esua before he and Jacob were born. He ordained the older to serve the younger. The hated statement came many years later describing Edom. Does God not love the world? There are many characteristics of God’s love that we could discuss, but the key distinction between the love God has for all and the love He has for the elect is that His love for the elect is eternal. So, in light of eternity His temporal love will seem as hate. Jacob loved one wife more than the other. It describes his loving Leah less as hate even though he actually did love her.

God does choose those who are saved. We are saved by His merits alone. These are given. What is incorrect is the idea that He also elects some for damnation. It is clear from many scriptures that people bring damnation on themselves by refusing God’s will not because He forces His desire upon people so He can send them to hell.

Does God harden men’s hearts? Yes. People harden their own heart by stubborn disobedience when confronted with the truth. When we sin ignorantly we are disobedient. When we learn our action are against God’s commands and do not repent, we are hardening our heart. How does God harden hearts? It is by sending truth to someone who God knows beforehand will refuse to obey.


98 posted on 06/08/2013 3:40:05 PM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“There aren’t any.”

Until there are. All are sinners until they are justified. All seek not until they do. All are dead until they are given life.

Human will exists according to the passage we are discussing. By it we can choose to do something or sometimes merely desire to do something without doing it.

“He has willed the chosen.”

Yes. His will is done. My meaning is that He has not forced our will to change. Nothing in these passage indicates that.

“The chosen do not choose Christ.”

It may be that describing a willing heart as choosing is not correct. The Bible does teach making a choice to serve God, but repentance may be less than a choice and merely a willingness to turn from sin to God.

“Whosoever will may come.” I cannot prove this is a choice, but it is something for which we are held accountable which means is under our control and responsibility.

It is also clear that Christ used figures of speech for emphasis. So He says “he who believes in Me, believes not in Me...” in John 12:44. In context, the gospel demands a response of either faith or unbelief, repentance or hardness of heart.

So, returning to my point, the gospel is for all. The command to repent is to all men everywhere. Those who are disobedient and remain unrepentant do so of their own volition and are thus responsible for their judgment. God has afforded to them an offer of life which they have refused.

But those who hear and repent are granted to believe and be saved. This is a gift from God with no merit on our part.

You argue that the answer to the question of who has resisted His will is no one, but that is not true. Some quit resisting His will and believe. Some continue resisting His will.

Apparently Stephen was not informed on your position on this subject as he proclaimed “you always resist the Holy Spirit” in Acts 7:51. Or what about Christ proclaiming His willingness to save Jerusalem but did not because they were unwilling in Matthew 23:37? Or what about Christ denouncing the lawyers who refused to enter the kingdom and hindered others as in Luke 11:52?

Christ again ties the issue to our will when He said that anyone who is willing to do God’s will recognizes His doctrine is from God in John 7:17?

God’s will is for people to be saved. When people yield or submit their will to His, they are able to receive the message in faith. When people resist the word of God, His Spirit and His grace through continued pride and stubbornness, they cannot believe and do not receive the gift of salvation. If people abide in unbelief they are condemned to hell. If they do not continue in unbelief they are saved.

God did not say He hated Esua before he and Jacob were born. He ordained the older to serve the younger. The hated statement came many years later describing Edom. Does God not love the world? There are many characteristics of God’s love that we could discuss, but the key distinction between the love God has for all and the love He has for the elect is that His love for the elect is eternal. So, in light of eternity His temporal love will seem as hate. Jacob loved one wife more than the other. It describes his loving Leah less as hate even though he actually did love her.

God does choose those who are saved. We are saved by His merits alone. These are given. What is incorrect is the idea that He also elects some for damnation. It is clear from many scriptures that people bring damnation on themselves by refusing God’s will not because He forces His desire upon people so He can send them to hell.

Does God harden men’s hearts? Yes. People harden their own heart by stubborn disobedience when confronted with the truth. When we sin ignorantly we are disobedient. When we learn our action are against God’s commands and do not repent, we are hardening our heart. How does God harden hearts? It is by sending truth to someone who God knows beforehand will refuse to obey.


99 posted on 06/08/2013 3:40:08 PM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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