“If seeking and believing are gifts from God, it does not follow that men are still given the opportunity to seek and believe on their own to earn what was given to them as a free gift, when we know they don’t:”
An opportunity to seek and believe is not “earning” anything. The life of a believer starts in grace and continues in grace.
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10)
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.” (John 15:16)
Notice that in both of these passages that predestination, that which God determined beforehand, includes the righteous acts of saints after having believed. Are these righteous acts an earning of salvation or are they the work of God accomplished by His grace?
“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Corinthians 15:10)
“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.” (Philippians 1:6-7)
Again, the Christian life is by grace, not by works. Yet, believers are called not only to believe but also to labor by God’s grace. Is this “earning” salvation? No. Are we partakers of grace by our participation in good works? Yes.
“For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing, imploring us with much urgency that we would receive the gift and the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. And not only as we had hoped, but they first gave themselves to the Lord, and then to us by the will of God. So we urged Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also complete this grace in you as well. But as you abound in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all diligence, and in your love for us—see that you abound in this grace also.” (2 Corinthians 8:3-7)
Here, the act of giving is called a “grace”. A person can give money as an act of self-righteousness as Christ described in the sermon on the mount, but it CAN also be done on the basis of grace.
God has given people time to repent. The opportunity to repent does not mean it is “doing it on their own”. Here is an example:
“And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.” (Revelation 2:21)
So there is no indication that there is some category of people whom God never gives the ability to believe. You are assuming your own conclusion of irresistable grace rather than demonstrating that is from the scriptures and not a man made doctrine.
There are many scriptures attesting to God giving people opportunities to repent. He pleads. He extends mercy, grace, patience, longsuffering. And yet, for all of this, some continue to resist and harden their hearts more and more until God finally decides there will be no more. I already showed you several scriptures with this regard. The ability to come to God is a gift. Gifts are not earned, but they are received. If someone gave you a car, it would still be your choice to tranfer the title, to get behind the wheel, and to drive it places.
“Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.” (Proverbs 1:24–28)
“Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, ‘Today,’ after such a long time, as it has been said: ‘Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts’.”(Hebrews 4:6-7)
Did they fail to enter because God chose not to give them His irresistable grace, or because of their choice of disobedience. The writer says it was their disobedience.
And I have already answered your comment on Romans 3:11 about none seeking. I don’t know why you just repeat something when I have already shown several scriptures describing that people do seek God. So you need to go back and look at the context of the passage Paul is quoting from in the Old Testament to understand the thrust of his argument. It simply does not prove what you are claiming no matter how many times you quote it or repeat it.
“Either God gives us the ‘heart’ to know the Lord, or He doesn’t. Your view cannot coexist with such scripture.”
Even the term “heart” is figurative. We are being told spiritual truth using natural illustrations. To build such an elaborate scheme on a few verses with no context using figurative language is a fairly weak argument. To elevate your doctrine to the level of scripture and claim for your theological position to be equivalent to the authority of scripture is foolishness.
“Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 18:31)
Which is it? Does God give a new heart or do we get it for ourselves? Both are quotes from scripture. Can’t you see that it is foolish to stake a position on a turn of phrase using figurative language?
I’m more than willing to have my views corrected by scripture, but just repeating a verse with a trite explanation and no effort to actually look at the context of the passage itself or the passage being quoted does not make a persuasive argument.
“It seems you’ve come around to my view”
I haven’t actually changed my position on this issue. I am open to the correction of the word of God. I accept that as the final authority for all matters of theology.
“According to the scripture, men are not elected based on any foreseen merits or acts of faith, but for the will and purpose of God given to them before they had done either good or evil.”
Ok. But all people sin. So obviously His election is not based on our sinlessness. We already have both stated that salvation is not based on our merits. So you say it is based on His will and purpose. Ok. That’s fine too. Now, what will? what purpose? I have already answered that earlier also. It is according to His good pleasure and His glory.
We are discussing the very nature of sentience. These are deep philosophical questions which have long been debated in and out of Christian circles. I return to the election of holy angels and the rejection of fallen angels. Fallen angels have no opportunity to repent and be forgiven. But can Satan argue in the heavenly courts before the Judge of all of heaven and earth that he (i.e. Satan) is evil because God made him evil? Or did Satan choose to do evil contrary to the will of God? You have argued “For who hath resisted his will?” even though this is a foolish argument because Paul was not saying this to be the case. Will you argue next “let us do evil that good may come” as in Romans 3:8? Christ taught to pray “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven” because His will is not being done. It is constantly being resisted by the iniquity, rebellion and willfulness of man.
If Satan were to ask God if He is merciful and forgiving what would the answer be? Yes, of course. But can Satan demand for God to give him mercy? No. God is under no such obligation. But how can God prove that He is merciful if there is no one to show mercy to? And how can God create someone or some thing that chooses to do that which is against the nature that God gave to the created person?
Mankind is an object lesson. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22, 44-49; and Romans 5:12-21) Job was an object lesson. The church is an object lesson.
“and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Ephesians 3:9-11)
In these object lessons God has shown that choice and will are truly independent operations of the creation seperate from the Creator. He has also found a basis or reason to show mercy to mankind without allowing Satan the opportunity for forgiveness. He placed man in the garden with a test of will. He warned Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He also placed the tree of life in the garden, but we do not read of God telling Adam or Eve that this tree existed or what it could do for them, only that of every tree they “may freely eat”. And God told them to be fruitful and multiply. They did not exercise their freedom to eat of every tree, we know, because they had not eaten from it when they were removed from the garden. If Eve or Adam had said to the serpent, “Let me sleep on that. Let me try out all the other trees first”, then they would have eaten from the tree of life eventually. They did not exercise their liberty and lost it. They procrastinated on procreation as well, for we read later that Adam finally “knew his wife” and had a son. In all of this God allowed Satan to tempt them, by which they became his victims. God also allowed Satan to acquire his own domain over the earth in order to prove Satan was incapable of being the god he desired to be.
“Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms’?” ( Isaiah 14:16)
In the first words we find spoken by Satan, we see him challenge the authority of God, the truth of His word, the integrity of His motives, and the very nature of sentience:
“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” and “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1, 4)
Satan has thrown down the gauntlet. He is defying God in front of mankind and the angels. Yet God does not instantly punish Satan. He allows him to continue for a long season in his endeavor. Why? He is showing His wisdom and power to the elect angels and also to us who are saved.
Satan wants to be like God. He proposed that the tree of knowledge of good and evil would result in humans being like God. This has to do with choice and autonomous decision making. He is arguing that true choice requires no accountability or submission to a higher authority. Yet scripture teaches that everyone is subject to authority. Even Christ is subject to the Father.
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’”
(Isaiah 14:12-14)
“So Satan answered the Lord and said, ‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ “ (Job 1:9)
Here we see Satan arguing the nature of Job’s righteous behavior. Satan argues that for Job there really is no choice to be made. Satan insinuates that God is buying Job’s loyalty and, as such, subtly maligns God’s character in front of the angels.
“So Satan answered the Lord and said, ‘Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.’ “ (Job 2:4)
A second time now Satan makes his case that God is manipulating the outcome of Job’s behavior by restraining evil from happening to him.
What is Satan trying to accomplish by afflicting Job? Satan is trying to prove that choice is an illusion. He is trying to argue that God is responsible for every action of every person because we only do what we were created to do or we only act according to the circumstances in which we are placed. God proves Satan wrong. Remember it is God who brought up Job’s righteousness, not Satan.
“Who has resisted His will?” is not Paul’s logic or argument. Is it Satanic. As I already pointed out, Stephen preached that his attackers “always resist the Holy Spirit”. Paul answers the question that, yes, people do resist His will:
“But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (Romans 9:20-21)
God said the older would serve the younger. The right response to this is, “How can I serve you? What would you have me do?” And not, “I will kill my brother rather than serve him.” Do potters normally spend hours forming a vessel for no reason but to smash it? No. Yet some clay is unworkable. Some clay in unfit for anything else. A potter will work the clay, adding moisture, and try to get it into the shape desired, but is forced to discard any that come out defective. This is not a reflection on the potter’s ability but rather of the condition of some clay. The potter may choose to make one vessel a beautiful vase while making another a basin to wash feet. If the clay is stubborn and will not mold into the desired shape, the potter must discard it. So, yes people do resist. And, no, it is not a reasonable reply against God to say He made me this way and that is why I am doing evil.
Satan attempts and fails again when he tempts Christ. Christ proves it is possible to be human and to not sin. Adam proved that humans have the capacity to sin. Both are true.
“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)
But God chose to extend mercy to mankind, having compassion on our frailty.
“For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.” (Psalm 103:14)
Again, you said, “According to the scripture, men are not elected based on any foreseen merits or acts of faith”
Is repentance meritous? Is it praiseworthy to admit the extent of our depravity? Does any just judge grant pardon because the accused admits to being guilty? Of course not.
To stop resisting God does not constitute a “good work” or a works-based salvation.
God’s election IS based on foreknowledge. It does not say His foreknowledge is based on His election. You have it backwards.
“elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:2)
“I suppose your position is that God foresees that they will repent and believe, and therefore gives them the gift to repent and believe, as convoluted as that is.”
It is not merely that He foresees what people will do, He sees all possible outcomes. He knows what we will do in a given circumstance even if that circumstance never exists.
“Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.” (Genesis 2:19)
Did God not know what Adam would call the animals? Yes. Yet it is clear He wanted to watch these events unfold.
“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, ‘Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.’ “ (Genesis 11:5-6)
Again we see God knew what would happen in the event of some circumstance that He did not allow to occur. And there are many others. One is the passage I mentioned above in which God says the spiritual Jezebel would not repent. He had given her time. He always knew she would not repent. But He proves it to us and to her. She has no excuse.
Again, “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.” (Luke 10:13)
And so, yes, God does foreknow who will repent and who will not. I have given you specific examples from scripture.
You repeat John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” which I have already answered.
When Peter, Andrew, James and John were called to follow Christ, did they NOT make a decision to leave their nets and follow Him? Their doing so is described. Christ is speaking using a figure of speech just like in John 12:44 where Jesus cried out, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.”
Did His disciples believe in Him or not believe in Him. He says here whoever believes in Him does not believe in Him. Obviously they DO BELIEVE in Him. He is using a figure of speech to make a point. Believing in Him is the same as believing in the Father.
Who can obey Joshua 24:15 when it says, “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve”? Can only believers make this choice AFTER they have received a new heart? If so, how can Paul tell believers to live out the Christian life in the same manner as when they came to Christ?
“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:2)
“As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him” (Colossians 2:6)
We walk in the Spirit the same way we receive the Spirit, by receiving the word of God with meekness, that is by a conscious choice of willing obedience.
“Actually, pretty sure it only took Paul just another moment to write it. There is no complicated lesson here about nations. Nor is there any gap in the writing.”
Wow. Just wow. We don’t even have to read a whole chapter for context when Paul quotes the passage from Genesis.
“And the Lord said to her:
‘Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
And the older shall serve the younger’.”(Genesis 25:23)
The second verse he quotes is from Malachi which was given to the prophet many centuries later and not before the twins were born:
“’I have loved you,’ says the Lord.
Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
‘Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?’
Says the Lord.
‘Yet Jacob I have loved;
But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.’ “ (Malachi 1:2-3)
By this time Jacob and Esau have been dead for centuries. Jacob is in Abraham’s bossom. Esau is in hell. The hatred here though is more than just God’s wrath on the older brother; it reflects His assessment of the moral condition of his descendants. Israel is among the nations that will be saved. Edom is among those that will be destroyed forever.
So, what you need to see is that the passage in Malachi is not an illustration of God choosing to hate one brother and love the other one. It is the prophetic fulfillment of the first passage.
Why didn’t God destroy Edom before this nation did all of the terrible things it did to God’s people?
“What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:22-24)
Perhaps for the same reason He did not immediately destroy Satan when he rebelled. He wanted to show the angels the ultimate outcome of the rebellion. He wanted to show them His true nature of mercy and love. He wanted them to serve Him out of love rather than only fear.
God allowed Israel and Edom to coexist. He allowed Satan and the fallen angels to coexist with the elect and holy angels. He allowed the wheat and tares to grow together. To what end? To reveal His glory whether by wrath or by mercy, and to find pleasure in showing mercy and kindness to the elect. God’s election is not in conflict with our ability to choose, it is the basis of it.
“An opportunity to seek and believe is not “earning” anything.”
When it comes down to it, if one accepts your convoluted view, ultimately the difference between the believer and the unbeliever is in the righteousness of the former in having a “willing” heart of his own to ask for a new heart from the Savior. And as long as they remain in this condition of wanting this new nature, they are saved. At the final evaluation, however, we can only say that they have earned grace by their continued faithfulness.
Of course, you hold that faith is actually a gift, but as a result of someone willing to repent and believe, which is a mere contradiction. You continue:
“Notice that in both of these passages that predestination, that which God determined beforehand, includes the righteous acts of saints after having believed. Are these righteous acts an earning of salvation or are they the work of God accomplished by His grace?”
This is exactly my view, that God determined beforehand the righteous acts of all believers. The difference between us, of course, is that the “choice” (the decision to follow Christ) is determined by Christ, whereas you say the person’s choice is determined by themselves, and acted upon retroactively in predestination. Christ is quite clear that “You have NOT chosen me, I have chosen you.” And so we must hold that the subsequent choosing of the believer for Christ is a direct result of Christ’s initial choice for them, and is ordained with all the other works that result from Christ’s initial choice. But then you veer off from these conclusions from this verse in this following quote, and this sounds very Romanist in actuality. (Are you Roman Catholic? I assumed you were Protestant at first.)
You write: “Yet, believers are called not only to believe but also to labor by God’s grace. Is this “earning” salvation? No. Are we partakers of grace by our participation in good works? Yes.”
This seems to suggest that one partakes of grace through participation in good works. But as the previous verse already shows, those same works are ordained for us from the very beginning that we should do them. They are a result of salvation (Christ’s choice), and therefore cannot be said to be a condition that we must uphold to remain in grace. If one fills a lamp with oil and ignites it, the lamp will shine brightly with the fire. It can’t do anything except burn brightly, and unlike the oil the Holy Spirit is never consumed utterly. And such is the same condition of the Christian who no longer has a heart made of stone, but a fleshy heart that endeavors to do the will of God. Therefore, to say that we remain in grace through participating in works is like saying a lamp has the option of not giving light when ignited.
“And I have already answered your comment on Romans 3:11 about none seeking. I don’t know why you just repeat something when I have already shown several scriptures describing that people do seek God.”
To be honest, the rest of your post is indeed a giant repetition of what has already been dealt with. You did not deal with my comment on Romans 3:11. You simply avoided quoting the scripture which says “none seek,” and then asserting that the existence of those who do seek must mean that Paul was just kidding when he said “none seek’ at all, in all of humanity. My view reconciles the two, by asserting that only those seek who have been regenerated, and these same regenerated souls infallibly know that Jesus is the Savior due to God’s direct revelation and imprinting on that same soul His identity. Your view says silly stuff like “none seek until they do,” ignoring the necessity of God regenerating the soul of the believer so that they do believe.
1Co 2:14-15 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Until the natural man is indeed made into the spiritual man, he cannot believe the Gospel nor even understand what it actually teaches.
“So there is no indication that there is some category of people whom God never gives the ability to believe.”
Yes there is, here’s one example of it:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
They do not believe because it was not given to them to believe. No matter how long winded your posts get, they can’t change this fact.
“Which is it? Does God give a new heart or do we get it for ourselves?”
From Gill’s commentary:
“... it [this verse] will not prove that it is in the power of man to make himself such a heart and spirit; since from God’s command, to man’s power, is no argument [In other words, a command from God does not imply a moral ability of the individual to do it. It is merely a prescription of what should be done, but does not imply that it can be done, since other verses declare that it can only be done by God’s doing]; and the design of the exhortation is to convince men of their want of such a heart; of the importance of it: and which, through the efficacious grace of God, may be a means of his people having it, seeing he has in covenant promised it to them. The Targum renders it, “a fearing heart, and a spirit of fear;’’ that is, a heart and spirit to fear, serve, and worship the Lord, and not idols”
A command by God to do this or that does not imply a moral ability, in and of himself, for man to do it, as I’ve gone over before. Unless you believe that to “sin no more” and to “be ye perfect” are possible. But if God does not give us that heart to begin with, it is impossible to desire to have one in the first place. Your reading, actually, would contradict Christ in the Gospels, who declares what I declare, that unless it is given by the Father, it is impossible to believe.
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
1Co_12:3 ... and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Mat_16:17 ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“Now, what will? what purpose? I have already answered that earlier also. It is according to His good pleasure and His glory.”
As far as I can tell, you asserted that the “reason” was God foreseeing man’s faithful persevering in grace. If the reason is for God’s own particular purpose and will, and not because of any foreseen merits on our part, then you cannot argue what you have been arguing.
“Did they fail to enter because God chose not to give them His irresistable grace, or because of their choice of disobedience.”
Obviously, it’s the latter. Your false premise here is that because God elects some and not others, that somehow those who are not elected aren’t responsible for their sins. Your post is, honestly, filled with this false assertion which I’ve already addressed previously. While it is true that the man who is elected cannot take credit for his salvation, in the case of the unregenerate they are, by nature, utterly opposed to God despite His oft repeated pleas to turn and convert. When God predestinates a vessel of wrath, He merely passes them by. He does not give them a sin nature that they possess by nature. In the case of the elect, however, it is God actively reforming an individual into a “spiritual man” who is no longer the same person they were before.
I’ll also add that you also continue to assert that I take out the role of human responsibility, to a certain extent, of their actions. I have never said that the elect are made into Robots who only do what is right, because they are suddenly made perfect in understanding. My argument has always been that the elect are remade people, who possess a sin nature in their members and an imperfect knowledge, yet ultimately are new people within whom God works “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” This is not an argument that states that man does not need instruction from the Word of God for “reproof, correction, to thoroughly furnish them for good works.” It is an argument that states that inside man is a desire to be reproofed, corrected, and thoroughly furnished.
Thus all your long winded arguments pointing to human responsibility in no way touch upon anything I actually disagree with. I simply assert that God’s decision to save a man is infallible, and that it is impossible that anyone not chosen by God can believe, and it is impossible for anyone chosen by God not to believe and desire to “will and to do” by the working of God in their souls.
“Paul answers the question that, yes, people do resist His will:”
You’ve repeated this a number of times, but Paul never said anything of the sort. He is quoting an objection to his view, and replies that “who art thou to reply to God, why hast thou made me thus?” In other words, he is rebuking the idea that God is unjust in electing one person over another. Notice you never quote the entire sentence when you reference it.
Your wresting of the scripture here is just a repetition without any real explanation for what has been said already.