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To: ShadowAce

I have experienced those so focused on the doctrine of election that they felt it unnecessary to preach the gospel, given their belief that God would save them anyhow. They thus forget, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? - Rom. 10:14. But, more to the point of this thread, in the previous verse we read, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” The “Whosoever’s” of the bible insert a departure from man’s understanding of “the elect,” introducing an open to all view of salvation. How do we make these ideas jibe? I have often heard those speak about this using the imagery of a door into heaven, where, on the one side (facing mankind trapped in time and place) we read “Whosoever will” and on the other side of the door (having stepped through the door and into eternity), the glorified saint now reads “the elect of God” on the Heaven-side of the door.

To “over-emphasize” the doctrine of election (and I assert right now to any who might read here, that I say so with all humility and trusting that I am part of God’s elect, having received Christ as my Savior), to over-emphasize this point is to diminish (pervert?) the “Whosoever” aspect of God’s plan of salvation.

The first thing Christ did once He had chosen His disciples was to send them out into all of Israel with His message. One of the first things He told them upon His resurrection was to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations. The last thing He spoke to them before His ascension into Heaven was to serve as witnesses of Him in Jerusalem and throughout the whole world. Election did not seem to be on the mind of Christ so much as “Whosoever will.”


37 posted on 06/05/2013 5:44:09 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: MarDav

“I have experienced those so focused on the doctrine of election that they felt it unnecessary to preach the gospel”


And yet the greatest preachers in the world, and all of the reformers, all preached these doctrines. Gospel preaching isn’t taken out. After all, the Gentiles heard the preaching of the Gospel, and those who were ordained, believed.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

“introducing an open to all view of salvation.”


Taken logically as a whole with all the scripture, we cannot conclude that God draws all men alike, since the Jews who disbelieved weren’t drawn at all. They simply did not receive it from the Father to believe in the first place.

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So, if we take your position seriously, what you are basically proposing is that among those who DO receive it to believe, some of those will still NOT believe in Jesus Christ, and therefore will perish. Which makes one wonder what is the point in God revealing Himself to some, and not to others, in the first place.

I’ll also add one more observation. The existence of a command for all to believe, or any command at all, does not imply a moral ability in the hearer to obey it. After all, Christ tells people to “sin no more.” Yet, we know that this is impossible. He commands us to be “perfect” as our Father in heaven is “perfect,” yet this is not something that a person can accomplish using his own power. In fact, none of us even have any righteousness of our own. Our righteousness is imputed from Jesus Christ through faith. It is good to believe, and it is the 1st and great commandment, yet the scripture is clear that NO ONE seeks after God or loves Him:

Rom 3:9-11 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Yet, you would have us to believe that, yes, there are SOME people who do love God, who do seek Him, on some fundamental level that belongs wholly to them, which is NOT the work of God in regeneration.

But this, simply, is not what we are taught. God gives to us a new heart. This heart is not of our own doing, but is a complete change in the heart we had before.

Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It is God by whom our works are wrought in the first place:

Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

We are told to “work out our salvation,” yet we are told both the will and the doing is wrought by God in the first place, since it is a heart given to us by God which desires to do these things, despite the sin in our members:

Php 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And it is God who starts a work in us, and sees it through to completion:

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

There is no vain seeking after works in order to be chosen. We are chosen so that we produce fruit in the first place. Obedience, works, and faith are the direct product of the working of God who takes away our stony hearts and gives to us a new heart that is truly alive, born again through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, predestinated before the world began.

“Election did not seem to be on the mind of Christ so much as “Whosoever will.””


The doctrine of election was preached from the very beginning!

Joh_3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


41 posted on 06/05/2013 3:13:49 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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