Posted on 05/27/2013 7:43:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
The Vatican has just announced that, despite what Pope Francis said in his homily earlier this week, atheists are still going to hell.
What a relief. For a brief moment there it was possible to imagine a brave new world of compassion, generosity and acceptance, not qualities we have come to associate with the Holy See.
Said Pope Francis this week: 'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!'
That seemed like a pretty clear admission that people of other faiths and none have intrinsic worth to God and will be saved alongside the faithful. But this turned out to be wishful thinking.
Although they are otherwise good, moral people they are still doomed to burn in a lake of fire for having the temerity to have been born outside of Catholicism or having chosen to remain so.
The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, spelled it out for the world on Thursday. People who know about the Catholic church 'cannot be saved' if they 'refuse to enter her or remain in her,' he said.
So that's one tall order of eternal hellfire for the rest of us, then.
It makes for an interesting spectacle to see the infallible pope being corrected by his handlers, doesn't it? For a moment it was possible to recall the welcoming and indulgent style of the short lived Pope John Paul I in the unexpectedly all-embracing words of Pope Francis. But you'll recall how quickly John Paul I was replaced by the much more doctrinaire John Paul II.
(Excerpt) Read more at irishcentral.com ...
Everyone knows that; please don't insult us.
Standard shortcuts and conveniences in casual language mean we don't have to spell out the obvious each time.
Regarding the "individual decision that each of us must make for ourselves", that's essentially what happens during Catholic Confirmation. Get it? Confirm the faith.
Catholicism teaches that salvation is through it and popes have infallibly declared that salvation is only for those who submit to Rome.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
And some examples of papal pronouncements reiterated repeatedly over the years.
Here's the link and just SOME of the quotes from the popes.
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."
Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
— Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
I’d like to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt and just say that while he might know Vatican II perhaps he should spend a bit more time in the scripture. ;O)
To my knowledge, that was the first time the specific phrase had been uttered. The Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore was published in 1863...the Vatican Council was not until 1868...so you should be able to do the math on that one for yourself (as far as infallibility is concerned).
Having said that, you should consider the story of Jesus and the Centurion in Capernum (Matthew 8:5ff).
sigh, again ignorance has a way of confusing His truth. The Pope was speaking of Messiah's blood, the “price” that was paid to “redeem” us. Salvation is of “grace” from the Father in which “nothing”, not even the blood of Messiah can obligate the Father to give us anything as no flesh prone to sin could ever do anything to deserve such a gift. And in that sense it is free unlike that which the Father and the Son paid. But the Father's “grace” comes attached to our faith (Eph2:8)”, so what is “faith” according to the God the Father and His Word that put on flesh? And what has this “faith” to do with “grace”?
Faith comes by hearing (shama), and hearing(shamar) by the Word of God.(Dt6:4-9) It comes by the hearing of the Word and then the doing of the Word because it is what we truly believe in our heart that we act upon and do.
As Messiah said, if we are Abraham's seed, then we would do the works of Abraham, works that evidence our faith in the One true God and Creator of all things seen and unseen. (Gen26:5; Rm4, Gal3 & Heb7&11)
Messiah's blood is our covering as we cross the threshold into eternal life but true faith is liken to going through a car wash, as the outside is washed with water (immersion baptism), the Holy Spirit which writes the Word of God on our hearts in order to guide us in His Truth cleanses us from the inside. (Mt23:25-26; Lk11:39-40; Eph5:26; Rev19:7-9)
Yes the blood is important, but it is the last step in the process of salvation unto eternal life. Why are we told to "work" out our own salvation if Messiah's blood and His death on the stake completed the process so that there was no more for us to do but just make a confession at the alter and be sprinkled with water if there isn't more to it than what we have been told?
Outside of Messiah's blood there is no "redemption" and outside the Word of God there is no "salvation". But then is not Messiah the one and same Word of God that has been from the beginning who ate and covenanted with Abraham on behalf of the Father? (Jn1:18, 3:13, 5:37, 6:46 & 1Jn4:12,) From the beginning to the end, Genesis to Revelation it has always been the Son speaking on the Father's behalf and the Son, from the beginning, has been pointing mankind back to obedience to the Father as Messiah is obedient to the Father. (1Pet2:19-25, grace attached to obedience to the Father's will as evidence of our love of the Father, 1Jn2:1-6; 1Jn5:3)
I don’t believe anyone was saying that only Catholics are admitted into heaven. That is not the teaching of the Church. What is being said is that if a Catholic decides that they want to abandon practicing their Catholicism, that Catholic is placing his or her soul in eternal jeopardy. Similarly, and perhaps that’s where the confusion may lie, if a non-Catholic comes to realize that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ, but then refuses to embrace the Catholic Church, they too will suffer a similar fate. You seem to be saying that you believe the religion you practice is acceptable in the eyes of God, and that you have no need to convert to Catholicism. I believe a priest will confirm that you are not obliged to convert in order to save your soul.
The important takeaway is simply this: the Catholic Church teaches that non-Catholics may very well be saved, but if they are, they will be saved in spite of the fact that they belong to some other religion, not because of that other religion.
“igh, again ignorance has a way of confusing His truth. The Pope was speaking of Messiah’s blood, the “price” that was paid to “redeem” us.”
I wasn’t responding to the Pope just then, I was rebuking the other fellow who asserted that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ.
” It comes by the hearing of the Word and then the doing of the Word because it is what we truly believe in our heart that we act upon and do.”
Justification is had not by doing, but by not doing, by the faith which is given by God to the believer.
Rom 4:4-8 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Works are not the result of salvation, nor do they cause faith. Faith is the gift of God, according to the election of the Father predestinated before the world began, through the obedience and blood of Jesus Christ, and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
“Why are we told to “work” out our own salvation if Messiah’s blood and His death on the stake completed the process so that there was no more for us to do but just make a confession at the alter and be sprinkled with water if there isn’t more to it than what we have been told?”
I submitted too soon the previous post. The scripture declares, right after the one you referenced:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The blood of the lamb is not the last part of salvation. Actually, here’s the order right here:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
First comes the election of the Father. Then comes the effectual call on the believer, then those who are ordained to believe, believe, and are justified by the blood of the lamb through faith. Then they are glorifed.
In all of this, it is God who does the calling, and justifies the individual, and glorifies him ultimately. Not the man who justifies himself, or works and wills in himself to be righteous by his own power. Nor is he righteous by his own merits, but instead receives the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Indeed, the spokeman is not correcting the pope but the press. Paradoxically, I don’t think that Calvin would have disagreed that among the heathen of China there are those who have never heard of Christ who are none the less “saved.” Or that among those who reject the concept of God, there are men who are pure in heart. Diamonds in the rough. Then there are those of us who fall far short even though we profess to be Christians.
Rm 2:13 for not the hearers of the Law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law will be justified
and this faith is exemplified to us by Messiah who was our example of how to walk out the faith of Abraham.
Rm 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith
Jm 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his (Abraham's) works, and by works his faith was made perfect?
Mt 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect
So let's back up a bit in Philippians where Paul says,
Php 1:6 being persuaded of this, that He who has begun a good work in you shall perfect it until the day of Yeshua Messiah
And this is how we are made one with the Son as the Son is One with the Father. From the beginning there has only been “One” and that “One” is the Father. (Mt19:17)
There has only been one way to the Father from the beginning and that way is the Way of the Father, the Way of light and the Way of Truth that leads to life. (Jn14:6; Ps119:1,92-93-,105,142,151,160&165)
In Messiah there is a stumbling block not just for Judah, but also for those who think they know the truth yet because they reject the Way of Truth as the path they are to live by, there remains also a stumbling block for them until Messiah returns and the Word of God goes out once again from Zion. (Isa8:13-22)
Yes, God calls many, but unfortunately few actually pick up the phone to receive His message so that they can find the true path to His life that He has to give them because that message will call them to walk contrary to the false ways (Jer16:19) that have been handed down to us from the early church fathers that defiled the Way after the apostles were gone. All throughout Scripture there is a theme, “if we will, THEN He will”. There are two parties to every covenant just as there are two parties to every marriage. The Father set the date and terms for the marriage to His Son. The Son did His part in humble obeisance to the Father and now it is up to us to follow that Way of the fathers Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, to walk in humble obeisance just as they did, not looking for our reward in this life, but looking to the true reward which is eternal life with the Father as the Son lives in eternally with the Father.
The Son left us a clear map of how to find Him in order to walk with Him and He in us.
Lk 24:27 And beginning at Mosheh and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matters concerning Himself. 44 And He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all have to be filled that were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
He didn't say wait a few decades and read Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn and the epistles of Paul, Peter and James to learn about Me and the salvation plan of the Father for mankind. No, He directed us to all that is left of Matthew as the foundation stone of understanding the Father's will and the Way of the Father in order to walk in the will and the Way of the Father as He walks in the will and the Way of the Father.
The true atheist is someone who puts his “trust,” in absolute contingency.
“But Paul also states that we are not justified by grace alone, but also by our faith.”
Faith comes by the working of God’s grace to begin with:
1Co_12:3 ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
It is not something that the believer figures out on his own, but is rather a direct revelation by God to the individual that Jesus is the Christ. No one “chooses” Christ, it is Christ who chooses the believer, and ordains him to bring forth fruit, and fruit that should remain. And it is God who works in us both to will and to do, and not of ourselves.
Php 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
It is grace which causes the Father to elect an individual without regard to his merits, it is by grace that a man comes to faith in Christ, it is by grace that a man is justified by that faith and then, after death, glorified.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
“Mt 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect”
Was Paul perfect?
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The command to be perfect, or the command to abide, or the command to do this or that, does not imply a moral ability in the believer to do so, and any good fruit we do produce is not our own, but is wrought by God. For by the law is the knowledge of sin, by which no one can be justified (it only condemns):
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore, salvation is not by the addition of works to grace, but by grace through faith, wherein the righteousness of God is imputed to ourselves.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
To say that salvation depends on works is to take away from grace. Either salvation is by grace alone, or by works alone, but it cannot be by a combination of both. Therefore, the Just live by faith, and not by trust in their own merits, since no one is perfect, or even close to being considered “good”. (Only God is good.)
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And this faith which God gives to us, is a faith which produces good works, and is thence “made perfect” in its results, but the results are not a cause. Such is the difference between the mere belief of Demons, and the faith of Christians.
“Yes, God calls many, but unfortunately few actually pick up the phone to receive His message’
The scripture does not say many are called, and few accept Christ. The scripture says, many are called, but few are “chosen” (Matt 22:14). And this choice is not based on our merits, but by His grace and purpose given to us before the world began, and not because of our merits.
Rom 9:11-16 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The article’s assertion that “only the saved are redeemed”, is mistaken.
The Blood of Christ redeemed all human sin, past, present, and future. Redemption is the payment of the penalty of sin.
Forgiveness is a separate issue.
Nobody is condemned to Hell for their personal sins. The issue of sin has been settled, once and for all, on the Cross.
Every human being is condemned upon birth due to the imputed sin of Adam which separated man spiritually from God. We are dead spiritually prior to our being reborn.
The good news is that Christ died on the Cross for our sins.
This is why God is free to immediately regenerate our human spirit at the immediate point of our acceptance of Him by faith in Christ and what He did on the Cross, because the sin has already been redeemed and He is free to forgive us once we face Him, confessing our sins by accepting Christ’s redemption on the Cross.
Christ still paid for the sins of those who reject Him. They just ave not been forgiven until they accept Him by returning to Him. They are born condemned and are redeemed, but are not yet saved.
I’d be interested to hear what you think of Dr. William Lane Craig’s belief that each soul’s access to Heaven is determined by his potential knowledge of Christ’s sacrifice. Craig asserts that if somebody was born on a desert island and left there, without ever knowing about Christ’s sacrifice, and never accepting it because of that fact, that the person would go to Heaven, because his acceptance of Christ was as complete as it possibly could have been for that individual.
I think this theory segways nicely into the discussion of Catholic access to Heaven and such, for if someone is brought up in the faith of say, Calvinism, and is never made aware of any reason why Catholicism is the true Christianity, he would still get into Heaven. He saw Christ as clearly as was possible for him.
I’m not sure whether I agree with Craig’s assessment, but it is a very interesting and heart-warming prospect.
Redemption is toward sin.
Reconciliation is toward man.
Propitiation is towards God.
The Blood of the Cross is the coin of the Realm.
Jesus Christ redeemed all sin, reconciling man to God and propitiating God the Father on the Cross by the Blood of Christ on the Cross, once and forever more.
If you are suggesting that that story supports invincible ignorance, I do not agree. Although the centurion “had great faith”, there was no evidence in that story that he was saved yet. I suspect he went on to get baptized at some point and then was saved, but at that point? No.
Thanks for the other info though....I will research that further.
Not at all. What I am suggesting is that Jesus showed mercy toward him despite the fact that he was a pagan.
But then that means that there is no real need for the Church to evangelize, right? And yet the Church teaches that we have a duty to do so. But this is where I question whether the Church is actually doing what it says we’re supposed to be doing...because:
When you hear homilies from the Pope like the one that has been completely misinterpreted and has questionable comments in it (atheists are children of God of the first class!), when you see ecumenism run amok to the point where it looks like the Catholic Church endorses other religions, when you see pro-abort politicians receiving communion with the approval of Catholic leaders, when you see priests giving lukewarm homilies that suggest that we’re no different than any other denomination (shall I go on??), etc I can see why the average Catholic sees no need to evangelize. I can see why the average Catholic thinks that every person has an equal chance at Heaven.
It’s really quite sad.
So would this qualify him as a false teacher ... or a teacher that just taught something false?
On atheists:
“If anyone denies the one true God, creator and lord of things visible and invisible: let him be anathema.” - Vatican I
Therefore, atheists are automatically excommunicated unless Francis is changing this.
“This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, is what I shall steadfastly maintain and confess, by the help of God, in all its completeness and purity until my dying breath, and I shall do my best to ensure [2] that all others do the same. This is what I, the same Pius, promise, vow and swear. So help me God and these holy gospels of God.” - Vatican I
I guess this means atheists and Protestants are going to Hell.
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