“I think the problem is that you have to read and interpret things with a great deal more discernment,”
I also asked you to go read post 114, though the one quote you did acknowledge, and bypassed entirely, is also fatal, since it places Mary into the salvation formula.
“and to ask for her consent first?”
Luk 11:27-28 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. (28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luk 8:20-21 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. (21) And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Claiming that she “consented” to let God bring the Messiah into the world certainly has a blasphemous ring to it, as if the will of God depends on a human being, or that the holiness of a human being adds to the work of God. And it is clear that there is no honor for Christ’s family that is superior to the honor that is freely given to all Christians. There’s no justification in scripture for deifying someone or accusing them of being the “all-holy Queen over all things.”
“How in the world do you know what God does or does not do?”
Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
God declares that no other God can be formed after Him. The attributes that are required to hear every prayer in the world, understand them, and understand the heart of the person praying, are all qualities of God. No spirit is capable of being in more than one place at one time, or holding such a vast amount of knowledge which changes and grows every day.
“That in no way means asking someone else to pray for you, which is what Catholics do.”
No, Catholics are sitting in front of altars of Mary, on their knees, pleading with a being up in heaven for her intercession. This isn’t asking someone else to pray for you. This is prayer to a being treated as divine, whom you expect is personally hearing your prayer, and is therefore in more than one place at one time.
Asking someone else to pray for me is what I do.
“Do you believe that, while here on earth, Jesus actually spoke with Moses and Elijah?”
It’s actually not clear that EITHER of them are actually dead, though certainly the God of Elijah and Moses can speak to them at any time if He pleases (Peter and the rest did not speak to them at all). Elijah was translated in the Old Testament and never tasted death. Moses did die, though the ancients largely thought it likely that Moses would serve as the “second witness” as mentioned in the Book of Revelation, if it isn’t Enoch. If he is the second witness, it is likely he already has been resurrected to a physical body.
Whatever the case, this isn’t what the RCC does. The RCC is praying out to people who are not even present, expecting them to hear, and asking for them for actual help, like one would do to God directly.
Here is the only one who really offers us this kind of help, Jesus Christ:
On how to pray:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
On the power of faith:
Mar 11:22-24 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
On the free nature of God’s gifts:
Mat 7:9-11 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Against the repetition of prayer:
Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
On the sainthood and righteousness of all believers:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Where, exactly, in all of this is there a need to pray to some other entity in heaven, instead of the God who is always present with us?
” Pay particular attention to greater discernment and distinction between flowery and poetic musings and actual statements of doctrine.”
Seeing the results of Catholic doctrine on people, who are there singing to Mary about her being their “strong hold” and “majestic hope,” whom they ‘adore,” makes it pretty clear what Rome’s doctrines are to me.
I did read your "post 114", and saw there a long list of unsourced quotes. (It is considered common courtesy that when you provide a quote, you provide the source of that quote so that others may check them out themselves and read them in context.)
The reason that context and sources are important is to help avoid distortions and misleading misinterpretations. A good example of this I recently encountered somewhere was this. "The Bible says 'He went and hanged himself' -- 'go and do likewise'." Without knowing that they are totally unrelated statements, one from Matthew 27:5 and the other from Luke 10:37, one could easily get the wrong impression by how those two sources are dishonestly quoted.
Well, let's just assume for purposes of this discussion that all of your posts are accurate and not misleading due to being removed from their contexts. One obvious problem still remaining is the way you interpret these quotes without applying simple logic to them.
If God was to make you a mansion, and God decided to install a faucet to bring the water from an external source into your mansion for your use, God makes that faucet a "source" of your water. It is not the water itself, but, rather, a source of your water. The external source of the water is also a source of your water. Without that faucet that God chose to use to bring the water in for you to access it, the water would remain outside your mansion, and you would not be able to access it in the way God chose to have you access it.
In the same way, your Mother is a source of you. God chose your Mother to bring you into this world. (Do you agree with that so far?)
God also chose in His Perfect Sovereign Will to use Mary as the Mother to bring His Son in His human nature into this world, did He not? God could have created that human nature of His Son out of the dust of the earth (like Adam), or God could have just spoken to endow Him with His human nature, or used an infinite variety of other methods to bring His Son into His human nature in this world. However, God chose to use Mary as the "conduit" or "gateway" to bring His Son's human nature into this world. Do you agree with that so far?
Do you agree that the little baby that Mary bore was the most precious baby ever born, and that that birth was the most profound, holy, unique, special birth that ever took place?
Mary was the human source that brought us the human nature of Jesus. Jesus, in His Mercy, is our Redeemer and Savior. In that sense, God chose that Mary would participate in bringing us Jesus, who brings us the opportunity for our salvation. Mary did not choose that on her own, the Church did not choose that -- God chose that. That is all those "source" and "gateway" kinds of quotes you are using are actually saying, sometimes in a flowery, poetic, old-fashioned manner. You are reading other inaccurate/untrue things into those quotes that are simply not there. (Remember that all untruths, whether uttered wittingly or unwittingly, come from Satan, the father of all lies, according to Jesus. John 8:44)
Let's look seriously at some more of the many errors you are erroneously asserting.
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" I said: “How in the world do you know what God does or does not do? "
Your response:
"Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
"God declares that no other God can be formed after Him. The attributes that are required to hear every prayer in the world, understand them, and understand the heart of the person praying, are all qualities of God. No spirit is capable of being in more than one place at one time, or holding such a vast amount of knowledge which changes and grows every day."
That Bible text says nothing whatsoever about whether saints can hear prayers or not. Your specious claim that "No spirit can do this or that" is, with all due respect, a crock of doo-doo. A spirit can do anything and everything that God wills it to do. You have absolutely no say in the matter. (Furthermore, what you say about that text in your comments following it is (truthfully) not found in that Bible text either. Please be honest about that.)
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You've said a number of times that you've seen this person or that person kneeling down before a statue, and that they are obviously worshiping the statue or the person the statue represents.
I don't know if you are familiar with baseball or not, but if a person from another culture came to a baseball game in America, and saw a batter in the "on-deck circle" kneeling and looking intently at the pitcher, they might think at first that the batter is worshiping the pitcher, but would they be correct in thinking that? As a Brit might say, "Not bloody likely!". As they say, appearances are deceiving.
And no one but that batter and God knows what that batter is thinking. He might be thinking "I can hit this guy", or he might be thinking "Boy, he really has a great fastball", or he may be thinking about his girlfriend, or his wife, or his finances, or what he was having for dinner, or something else. Only God and that batter know what the batter is thinking.
Likewise for people kneeling before a statue. In spite of your arrogant claims, you most certainly do NOT know if that person is worshiping or not, or what that person is thinking, or what is in their heart, soul, and mind. Only God and the person kneeling there know those things (and anyone God chooses to share them with).
If someone sees me kneeling before a statue of Mary, and tries to claim I am worshiping Mary, they are saying a complete untruth (a lie), and are knowingly or unknowingly working for Satan, the father of lies. If they persist in saying that falsehood even after they are informed they are wrong, they are demonstrating that they are invincibly ignorant and dishonest. Only God and myself know if and when I am worshiping, what I am thinking, and what is in my heart and mind. Anyone who claims they know what another person anywhere is doing "inside" is a liar. Only God and the person know those things, and whoever God chooses to share them with, such as the angels and saints.
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" It’s actually not clear that EITHER of them are actually dead... "
Does the Bible tell us that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died? What did Jesus say about them?
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" On how to pray: Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. "
Well, if you follow that instruction literally and exclusively, the only prayer you would ever say would be the "Lord's Prayer", the "Our Father". Now you might be different, but most Christians I know (both Protestants and Catholics) pray the "Our Father", but they also pray informal, spontaneous prayers in their own words freely chosen, which are not found anywhere in the Bible.
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" Against the repetition of prayer: Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. "
Assuming this accusation is a vain repetition of the tired old nonsense about the "Rosary". Your problem here is how you define "vain repetitions". For example, if someone prays "Holy, Holy, Holy", is that a "vain repetition"?
Read this:
The objection so often made against its "vain repetitions" is felt by none but those who have failed to realize how entirely the spirit of the exercise lies in the meditation upon the fundamental mysteries of our faith. To the initiated the words of the angelical salutation form only a sort of half-conscious accompaniment, a bourdon which we may liken to the "Holy, Holy, Holy" of the heavenly choirs and surely not in itself meaningless. (Excerpt - read entire article here: The Rosary)In other areas, you also miss the point by a wide margin. For example (and force yourself to be honest here), has your faith ever moved a real, literal mountain? If not, does that mean that you have no faith?
Do you honestly think that Jesus did not see His own Mother as being "blessed"?
Do you think we should all honor our Mothers? Is it a good idea to show other peoples' Mothers respect and honor? Do you think we should show great honor and respect to the Mother of Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, the woman chosen by God Almighty to be the Mother of Jesus?
You said that the idea of Mary's giving her consent for bearing and giving birth to Jesus somehow sounded blasphemous. Are you serious? Do you see God as some kind of Hitlerish dictator who does not give us the gift of free will, to enable us to say yes or no to the salvation God offers us, or to other decisions?
You say the Catholic Church tries to deify Mary - that is completely, 100% false, and you now know without a doubt where all falsehoods come from because Jesus told us, and I passed it on to you.
You can say it over and over and over and over... that does not make it any more true. (For example, if I say "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", "The moon is made of cheese", ... the endless repetition does not make it even a smidgeon more true -- it remains totally false.)
(And as for individual Catholics, out of all the Catholics I personally know, I've never known one Catholic who worships Mary, or sees her as some kind of God or Goddess. It is simply not true.)
Catholics also do not worship statues. It is like a soldier who holds a picture of his far-away wife while he prays at night, or a person holding the Bible while they kneel before their bed and pray. The soldier is not worshiping the picture, just using it to more clearly bring his wife into his mind as he prays, and the person kneeling and holding the Bible is not worshiping the Bible or the bed, just praying and using the Bible for inspiration. Catholics use statues and icons and other pictures as inspirations to bring to mind the person they are asking for prayers from.
Now, God can (of course) hear every prayer ever prayed. As I said in an earlier post, God often chooses to have human beings (creatures) partner with God in the work He wants done. I used the examples of how we've all learned about the stories of Jesus -- God chose human beings like "Matthew", "Mark", "Luke","John", "Paul", "Peter", "James", etc. (as well as more recent authors who derive their stories from those original authors), to teach these stories about Jesus to all of us. God could have whispered those stories and teachings in our ears, or implanted them in our minds, or any number of other possible methods, but he chose to partner with mere human beings to pass on these great teachings and stories to us.
Likewise, God could have made all of us by just speaking us into being, or using dust like God did for Adam, or various other ways, but He has chosen to usually have mere human beings partner with Him and play a part in bringing other new human beings into existence.
God often uses human beings to partner with Him in order to do various functions and tasks. This includes those who are already "with the Lord" praying with and for people still on earth.
One last point - I strongly urge you to stop putting up the phony-baloney straw-men of obscure, flowery and poetic musings and writings from deep in the past in order to try to shoot them down, and instead take a serious, completely honest look at the actual teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church, as found in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (available here)) or online here)
My intention right now is that this will be my last post on this thread, as I've already taken up enough space here.