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To: cuban leaf
I don't think the argument over the translations of certain words is a sufficient enough reason for rejecting what has been believed and taught in the Christian faith from the start. Here is a link you might find helpful: An Examination of Annihilationism

Just as Scripture does not support universal salvation, it also doesn't support annihilationism. You have the freedom to believe what you want on this doctrine, but you cannot prove unquestionably that you are correct. The idea of an eternal punishment IS something Jesus made clear such as in Luke 12:4,5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell." Fear is a healthy emotion when it is a legitimate and Biblically sound reaction. Jesus is not playing games or just trying to scare people with his words.

310 posted on 05/28/2013 10:14:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

That was a painful read. The author is not a very good communicator. He also interspersed the article with so much opinion and conclusion, rather than evidence, that it was hard to get through the chaff to get to the wheat.

I’ll respond this way:

When I left the Pre-trib believe for Mid-trib, my bible teacher at my church (we are still friends and he is a great teacher) gave me a white paper he had written regarding the rapture. His theme was completely in support of pre-trib. I was excited to read it and be convinced. After all, I had only been a Christian a couple of years (early 80’s) and who wouldn’t want to believe that just before the SHTF we would all be whisked away.

But his arguments went flat. In fact, the more I read, the more convinced I was that my mid trib (really post-trib, pre-wrath) belief increased and I lost ALL respect for the pre-trib belief.

I had the same experience with your article. It was a bit like reading the articles supporting Mary being ever-virgin. It assumes the reader has only skimmed the evidence for the opposite viewpoint.

The article you linked convinced me MORE that the lost are not eternal and will simply end at their “second death”. Have you read any of my links?


311 posted on 05/29/2013 4:57:45 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

Jesus made clear such as in Luke 12:4,5 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.”


Two things: First, I think a clear definition of what hell actually IS is in order. Second, it is PART OF the proof text I used and your link used:
Matt. 10:28//Luke 12:4-5
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.

Notice He can destroy BOTH soul AND body? That is annihilation. You are fixated on WHERE it happens and ignoring WHAT happens. We are discussing the final fate of the non-believer, not where it happens.

I see that scripture as similar to saying a cow is slaughtered in a slaughterhouse, where the slaughterhouse is hell. However, I don’t see hell the way you do. In fact, Revelation says hell itself will be destroyed.

The meaning of “hell” is a study that must be completed before you can use it to mean anything in this argument. The NIV uses it quite a bit, but the King James uses it more. For example, Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell itself is destroyed in the lake of fire, according to the KJV. But the NIV calls it hades. And a study of the origin of the terms is important.

I think one reason so many people are leaving the false theology of eternal suffering is that the internet, much like the printing press did so many centuries ago, enables a deeper search and study of the bible.

One could argue the printing press and it’s bringing the bible to the common man enabled believers to flee the shackles of the catholic faith. And now the internet allows us to deeply study His word and compare arguments made by various clergy and lay people. It is destroying long held beliefs from Darwinism to various doctrines of error. Just as our salvation is a very personal thing, so now our interpretation of scripture is likewise personal. That is as it should be. We all die alone and are alone responsible for our relationship with Him.

Google search things like “what is hell” and read BOTH sides. The truth percolates to the top if you ask God for wisdom before your search.


312 posted on 05/29/2013 5:12:15 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

I don’t think the argument over the translations of certain words is a sufficient enough reason for rejecting what has been believed and taught in the Christian faith from the start.


I need to address this point. I read an article once that discussed the issue of “doesn’t something HAVE TO BE TRUE if it has been taught in the church a long time?” I can’t remember the link to the article but it destroyed the concept.

One of my own examples is that the Catholic church has taught for a VERY long time that Mary never had sex. There is nothing in the bible to support such a ludicrous viewpoint, yet a LOT of people believe it. This is partly because they take the work of extra-biblical church fathers as the word of God. This is a travesty. It is what the Mormons do with their leaders, who said men live on the sun and moon.

The bible is the word of God. And anything SIGNIFICANT that is mentioned in only one place must really be scrutinized as to its real meaning. The bible riminds me of a modern airliner. They have triple redundancy in their important systems. I’ve been listening to the OT now on my 2.5 hour commute every day and I am amazed how often it reapeats itself in the space of a few chapters. It drives it’s point home over and over again.

That’s the point of the instructions for using the “Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch” In Monty Python’s Holy Grail. It is actually making fun of how the bible is rife with double or quadruple redundancy discussing key doctrines.

And the more I study using modern search tools and lexicons, the more I am convinced that John 3:16 has it exactly right. One receives “eternal life” and the other “perishes”. One is eternal and the other ends.


313 posted on 05/29/2013 5:21:11 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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