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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
if our works our wrought by God, they are not our own works.

Yes, they are: we choose them, and God works within us to give us strength to complete them.

How then am I hardened when Rome asserts that salvation must be through Rome, through a mechanical salvation of ritual and works?

The example is in your very sentence above: misrepresenting the Catholic teaching in order to defeat a myth of your own making. hint: "Rome" does not "assert" that.

Do you believe that there is a partial election, but that there are others who are capable of coming to God who are not elected?

No not at all. Everyone who is capable of coming to God will come, and God will help him, if not in his life than at his death bed, if not by formal conversion then on his dying breath. Everyone in Heaven is Catholic, -- there is no salvation but by the Catholic Church.

Rom 7:14-25

Rom. 12:21. In fact the entire chapter would be useful for you to read.

Also, "With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

This is why I partake of the Holy Sacraments, -- so that body spiritual rise in me (1 Corinthians 15:44). You should do the same.

If the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Child does not regenerate him nor provide him any benefit, it is more likely that the Spirit isn’t there at all

So say the unbelievers. But it is the baptized babies that built our civilization and filled the Heavens with their light. What did the unbaptized do?

baptism in and of itself has no supernatural or magical power to provide any benefit

The Holy Scripture says otherwise: "baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). It is true that an adult needs to repent and profess his faith himself, if he hasn't been baptized. A child obviously cannot do that, so it is not required.

as if the hand of God can be moved by the command of a priest.

Again, it would be useful for you to learn a little bit about the authentic Christianity before you attempt to trash it.

61 posted on 05/11/2013 1:02:53 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

“Yes, they are: we choose them,”


Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Sorry, but that simply isn’t compatible with the scripture.

“The example is in your very sentence above: misrepresenting the Catholic teaching in order to defeat a myth of your own making. hint: “Rome” does not “assert” that.”


It is exactly what Rome teaches. Every time you deny that salvation is the LORD’s alone, you promote it.

“No not at all. Everyone who is capable of coming to God will come,”


No one is capable:

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Therefore, God must draw us:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, it is God who works in us, for to will and to do.
You’ve not seriously answered any of the scriptures I’ve presented. There’s no point if you simply repeat your assertions without scriptural support, or answering the scriptures which defy your understanding of others.

“Also, “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)”


In the context of salvation through the keeping of commandments. ‘Who then can be saved?’ is the question that Christ responds to, since the man cannot keep them. Thus, this quote helps my cause, since it says the man is incapable, but with God, saving a man is possible. It does not support your view that you can be holy.

“there is no salvation but by the Catholic Church.”


There is no salvation but by Jesus Christ.

“So say the unbelievers.”


So says observation. Probably only about a quarter of Catholics in his country are even active, and of those active, very few understand that it is impossible for them to be good enough to enter heaven.

“The Holy Scripture says otherwise”


The Holy scripture says no such thing.

“Not the mere application of water, for that idea the apostle expressly disclaims, when he says that it involves not “putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us.” (Barnes’ Commentary)

Nowhere is baptism not conjoined with faith or repentance. And, therefore, the idea of baptism magically effecting salvation by the mere application of water has no basis.


62 posted on 05/11/2013 3:50:45 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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