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To: Jvette

“So, God is bound by HIMSELF and not man.”


And I agree with you, which is why I reject your theology.

“Remember, that Peter had just seen the vision when he was called to go to Cornelius and was not sure why.”


This simply isn’t true. Here is what Peter was saying before the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his family, demonstrating that he knew that the Gentiles also should be converted.

Act 10:28-36 And he (Peter) said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean... (34) Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

“Did Peter and the others receive the Holy Spirit twice? If not, what did they receive when Jesus breathed upon him? Because Jesus said receive the Holy Spirit.”


Unless you hold that the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and that there is no difference between New Testament infillings and Old Testament infillings, then you are in quite a theological conundrum.

“Why were they only changed men at Pentecost and not after receiving the Holy Spirit in the upper room 40 days before?”


They received the Holy Spirit in the upper room on Pentecost:

Act 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. (3) And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the same event that occurs to the Gentiles prior to water baptism in Acts 10.

“Jesus said, If you abide in me, I will abide in you. Or as some translate it, If you remain in me, I will remain in you. What happens if one decides to no longer abide/remain in Jesus?”


When God gives a command, it does not imply that we have the moral ability to perform it of ourselves. Christ commands us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, but yet none of us are perfect. Paul famously describes his own war with his flesh in Romans, doing that which he does not want to do, and not being able to do that which he would like to do. Is Paul in and out of abiding with Christ? He certainly is not perfect, as Christ commanded.

Christ, instead, teaches that salvation depends entirely on God. He declares, for example, that it is impossible to come to Him unless it is given to us by the Father:

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We are told that it is not the Christian who chooses Christ, but rather it is Christ who chooses us and ordains us for good (and abiding!) works:

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Yes, we are told to “work out our salvation,” but right afterwards we are told that it is God who works in us for to will and to do:

Php 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

Therefore, no man can claim to abide in Christ by His own obedience, power or merits, but must ascribe all of it to the power and glory of God alone.


41 posted on 05/09/2013 9:14:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

*****This simply isn’t true. Here is what Peter was saying before the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his family, demonstrating that he knew that the Gentiles also should be converted.*****

Peter comes to the revelation that he cannot withhold baptism from Cornelius after the Holy Spirit comes upon him. The fact that Scripture records this reveals that Peter was in fact skeptical and still working out within himself what the vision he had said meant.

As the leader of the Church, the Holy Spirit revealed to him that Gentiles were included in the new covenant. When he is called to Cornelius he goes because he is told to do so without doubt. But, Peter is not sure why and has not yet fully understood the vision he was given.

He asks Cornelius why am I here, why have you sent for me?
Cornelius says that he and his household want to hear what Peter has to tell them of Jesus.

It is then that Peter understands the vision and when Peter knows this truth, the Holy Spirit comes upon those present and Peter then says, who am I to withhold baptism from those who have received the Holy Spirit just as I have.

Immediately after this, the whole household is baptized.

Your argument does not hold in light of the entire story.

*****Unless you hold that the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and that there is no difference between New Testament infillings and Old Testament infillings, then you are in quite a theological conundrum.*****

I never said the Holy Spirit comes and goes, those are your words. Answer my question regarding the difference between the day of the resurrection when Jesus breathes upon them and says receive the Holy Spirit and the event on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit comes upon them for the second time.

Also, answer why they were changed men at Pentecost but not when He breathed the Holy Spirit into them just after His resurrection.

****Is Paul in and out of abiding with Christ? He certainly is not perfect, as Christ commanded.****

Again you did not answer the question. Or perhaps you didn’t understand what I was asking. There is a difference between the Christian that sins, knows he sins and knows that forgiveness comes through God’s grace and one who does not believe he has sinned and does not believe in the need of God’s grace for salvation.

If one was a believer and the Holy Spirit came upon him and dwelt with him, what happens when/if that believer no longer believes?

****When God gives a command, it does not imply that we have the moral ability to perform it of ourselves.****

I did not say that we did. I said God commands and man obeys. When man does not obey that is sin and when man sins he needs the grace of forgiveness and prays that same grace will help him not to sin again.

In the issue of baptism, Jesus commanded it, therefore in obedience, the Church baptizes. We are bound by the command, but God is not. We cannot choose whether to baptize or not, but if God chooses to save one who has not been baptized, that is His alone, bound by no rule.

*****Christ, instead, teaches that salvation depends entirely on God. He declares, for example, that it is impossible to come to Him unless it is given to us by the Father:

We are told that it is not the Christian who chooses Christ, but rather it is Christ who chooses us and ordains us for good (and abiding!) works:*****

Agreed.

*****Therefore, no man can claim to abide in Christ by His own obedience, power or merits, but must ascribe all of it to the power and glory of God alone.*****

Not exactly. We do choose to abide in Him, though He calls us first, we can choose not to obey and not to love. The fruit we bear is His fruit, but we may choose not to do the work for which God made us. We can choose to reject God’s grace, even after we have accepted it.

The parable of the vine tells us what happens to the one who does not bear fruit. Jesus tells us that He is the vine and we are the branches and if we do not bear fruit, we are cast off to whither. That means we were once part of the vine and live only by bearing fruit.

Jesus also tells us, John 6:56
He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

True, without God one can do nothing to bear fruit for the kingdom, but we most certainly can choose whether we abide in Him through obedience or disobedience.

God longs for us to be perfect, knows that we cannot be without Him, yet asks that we try out of love, albeit an imperfect love.


51 posted on 05/10/2013 6:54:38 PM PDT by Jvette
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