Posted on 05/03/2013 10:50:36 AM PDT by marshmallow
Candida Moss, a professor of early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame and a practicing Catholic, wants to shatter what she calls the “myth” of martyrdom in the Christian faith.
Sunday school tales of early Christians being rounded up at their secret catacomb meetings and thrown to the lions by evil Romans are mere fairy tales, Moss writes in a new book. In fact, in the first 250 years of Christianity, Romans mostly regarded the religion's practitioners as meddlesome members of a superstitious cult.
The government actively persecuted Christians for only about 10 years, Moss suggests, and even then intermittently. And, she says, many of the best known early stories of brave Christian martyrs were entirely fabricated.
The controversial thesis, laid out in "The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom," has earned her a lot of hate mail and a few sidelong looks from fellow faculty members. But Moss maintains that the Roman Catholic Church and historians have known for centuries that most early Christian martyr stories were exaggerated or invented.
A small group of priest scholars in the 17th century began sifting through the myths, discrediting not only embellished stories about saints (including that St. George slew a dragon) but also tossing out popular stories about early Christian martyrs.
Historians, including Moss, say only a handful of martyrdom stories from the first 300 years of Christianity—which includes the reign of the cruel, Christian-loathing Nero—are verifiable. (Saint Perpetua of Carthage, pictured in the stained glass window above, is one of the six famous early Christian martyrs Moss believes was actually killed for her faith.)
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
So the BIG point is not that "Genesis is a myth like the others," but the exact, diametric opposite: Genesis is a critique of myth; an anti-myth; a refutation of the mystifying propaganda of "the nations."
“despite claiming directly that the Catholic church teaches this.”
You keep ignoring my argument, which is that to give to Mary the functions and attributes that Catholicism does, they consequently make her out to be a deity. No human being is able to hear all the prayers of mankind in all the various languages, judge the heart of those men, and then reply to these prayers. In effect, to call her the “all-holy” virgin, the seat of wisdom, the Mother of salvation, amongst many other blasphemous titles, is to call her God over and over again.
” I prove that scripture teaches, very clearly, that they are not the dead. “
I ignored it since it wasn’t relevant to prayer to saints, but just so you know, Christ was speaking of the resurrection. “Mat_22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead... “ Not that men are already resurrected in heaven. Their spirits are there, but they are not resurrected until the end of the world (Rev 20). To say that God is the God of the living is to say that a future resurrection is certain, which Christ’s opponents were denying. The Jews understood “living” as having the soul united with the body.
“Two, prayers to. Wrong again. The Catholic church says that we can ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us.”
You don’t know what your church teaches.
2675 Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their PRAYER TO the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first “magnifies” the Lord for the “great things” he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.
—
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we PRAY TO HER, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40
Quite disturbing that she is part of the “plan of the Father,” when the scripture teaches no such thing, and even rules out the necessity of it by Christ’s perfect work on the cross.
“I pray with each one of you in front of the Grotto as it were to offer to the Immaculate Virgin the gift of the whole spiritual journey completed in this Marian month: every resolution, every concern, every need of the Church and of the world. May the Blessed Virgin hear your every prayer.” (message of John Paul II, read by H. E. Msgr. Francesco Marchisano, Grotto of our Lady of Lourdes in the Vatican Gardens, Saturday, 31 May 2003)
A sad world you live in, that every concern should be directed to Mary, instead of God.
“You said this was impossible. All I need to cite is the biblical quote, “through God all things are possible”.”
Mat 19:25-26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
The quote is on the context of salvation, as it is impossible for the man to save himself. It does not teach that God grants human beings the ability to be omnipresent and omniscient, which are divine qualities only, as your church teaches when it declares that she hears and understands all the prayers of the church. It is impossible for God to create another God, or to create a rock so big that He cannot move it, or a Mary who is big enough to be in the presence of every Catholic believer in the world.
“I believe that the Lord has the ability to make one second seem like twenty thousand years.”
Whether she has 20,000 years to go through one second, she still has to hear more than one prayer at the exact same time, unless our prayers are recorded and played back to her in heaven, one by one, for 20,000 years of her time. But, that’s not what your church teaches.
“Good for you. God permits that. God also permits this, so if he permits it why are you claiming God’s authority for yourself? If it’s good enough for God, it’s certainly good enough for me.”
That’s the thing. It’s not permitted. Nor is it even possible for Mary to accomplish it. You will find no instance in scripture where we pray to anyone but God. Nor will you find any instance in scripture, aside from the damned, who have any fear of going to God directly.
If you confess that it is permitted, and therefore permitted, we need no other method, what is the purpose of deifying a human being to do the work of God?
“Where does the bible teach this?”
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
“Yeah, ok. Is your assertion that Catholics don’t pray this?”
Whenever they pray to Mary the concerns of the heart, they rob it from the God who is actually hearing the prayer. When I was a Papist, no prayer from Mary worked. When I prayed as a Christian, my prayers with God are always answered, and in a miraculous way (though some take longer than others to be answered).
I’ll stick with the tried and true method, as commanded in the scripture.
Mat 7:8-11 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? (10) Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? (11) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
All this teaching on prayer throughout the New Testament, and yet none of it is taught on what the Catholics teach and recommend.
“Where does the Bible claim to be the sole doctrinal authority for the Church?”
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If the scripture is capable of making the man of God perfect, it is sufficient as the sole doctrinal authority of God.
The Bible promised in many places the church would be persecuted and so it has been and in many places in the world still is.
I know that the persecutions were indeed sporadic, but there can be no doubt that they were brutal and state-sanctioned. See for example the work of Suetonius, or letters of Pliny the Younger (see XVI); or Tacitus (see 15:44); or Pliny to Trajan (see letter XCVII and the emperor’s response)].
The operative word for Moss is "verifiable". Obviously almost nothing that happened 20 centuries ago is now "verifiable"; but the few instances that are verifiable may, and usually do point to a number of those that lost their verifiability through the passage of time. This does not make those a myth.
“And she did. “Be it to me according to your word.”
A perfectly acceptable conclusion, but the context of the scripture demands that all believers are equally blessed, regardless of their blood relation to the savior.
I thought this was interesting. A priest posted this on facebook and I thought I’d share. ( Although the priest posted this saying how much this seems familiar to what is happening to us here in America under OBama.)
Words such as "false" "wrong" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
“More importantly, you ought to be able to show me where in the scripture that any Christian in heaven can work with the Trinity in heaven to secure salvation for others”
Right. We play “fishing expedition” while you misrepresent what the Church teaches. No thanks.
Anyways, where’s the evidence from the catechism that the Catholic church teaches that praying to mary is a pre requisite for salvation.
“You keep ignoring my argument”
You stated that the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a god. I ask - “where in the Catechism does it say this?”
Your response - silence.
The catechism does not teach this. You have misrepresented Church teachings.
“which is that to give to Mary the functions and attributes that Catholicism does, they consequently make her out to be a deity.”
This is a different argument. At first you claimed the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a diety (which you’ve since backed out on.”
I’ve already shown that Mary’s ability to intercede is also possessed by other saints in heaven too. As it is for all of our brothers and sisters in the Faith. Ergo - your argument has zero merit.
“No human being is able to hear all the prayers of mankind in all the various languages, judge the heart of those men, and then reply to these prayers.”
Where does the Catholic church teach that Mary ‘judges the hearts of men?” As pointed out to you previously, intercession and mediation are two different things. Mary intercedes. Christ mediates.
“I ignored it since it wasn’t relevant to prayer to saints”
Meaning it was devastating to your thesis that the saints are dead, not alive.
“To say that God is the God of the living is to say that a future resurrection is certain, which Christ’s opponents were denying. The Jews understood “living” as having the soul united with the body.”
Interesting the knots you have to twist to get around the clear and simple meaning of the text. Jesus says, when he claims to have met Abraham, that he is a God of the living, not of the dead. Your eschatology is an invention of Luther, btw. There’s no evidence of it from scripture.
“centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries.”
Apparently you missed this part... Funny how you can cite the catechism when you are motivated and how you absolutely refuse to cite the catechism when you know you are in the wrong.
“Quite disturbing that she is part of the “plan of the Father,” when the scripture teaches no such thing, and even rules out the necessity of it by Christ’s perfect work on the cross.”
Nonsense. Atonement requires Christ to be fully God and Fully man. This is basic christian doctrine.
“It does not teach that God grants human beings the ability to be omnipresent and omniscient, which are divine qualities only, as your church teaches when it declares that she hears and understands all the prayers of the church.”
Evidence abounds that immortal and omnipotent God can stop and slow time however he wants. It stands to reason that time does not necessarily work in heaven in the same way time works here on earth. It is possible that heaven is entirely outside time altogether. Meaning that Mary has all the time she needs to read the prayers.
You cite this is impossible. Where is the scripture that says this is so? There isn’t any.
“That’s the thing. It’s not permitted.”
Says who? Yes, it is.
“You will find no instance in scripture where we pray to anyone but God.”
“Pray for one another”
“what is the purpose of deifying a human being to do the work of God?”
One, I reject your premise that intercession means you are God. Two, we are all called to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ. This exhortation does not end after death.
“Where does the bible teach this?”
“1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
Mediation!= Intercession.
“Whenever they pray to Mary the concerns of the heart, they rob it from the God who is actually hearing the prayer.”
Christ.
One, we don’t pray to mary, we ask Mary to pray for us.
Two, there’s nothing wrong with asking others to pray for us to God. In fact, God encourages us to do just that.
“When I was a Papist, no prayer from Mary worked.”
Ahh. I see.
So you believe God is a pez dispenser. Good to know.
I’m sorry you were poorly catechised - which is why it’s important to read and understand the catechism.
“Anyways, where’s the evidence from the catechism that the Catholic church teaches that praying to mary is a pre requisite for salvation.”
966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.”
Does the prayer of Mary deliver your soul from death, yes or no?
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
Is Pope Leo the 13th wrong when he says no man goes to the Son but by the mother?
Rest of the quotes from CatholicTradition.org http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18a.htm :
Open to us, O Mary, the gate of Paradise, since you have its keys!
St. Ambrose
God has entrusted the keys and treasures of Heaven to Mary.
St. Thomas Aquinas
No one can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate.
St. Bonaventure
Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary.
St. Bernard
Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!
St. Ambrose
We had closed Paradise; you, O Mary, opened the entryway to the tree of life again . . . You are the bridge to life, the staircase to Heaven!
St. John Damascene
She is the stairway to Heaven, and the gate of Paradise!
St. Lawrence Justinian
All the Saints have a great devotion to Our Lady: no grace comes from Heaven without passing through her hands. We cannot go into a house without speaking to the doorkeeper. Well, the Holy Virgin is the doorkeeper of Heaven.
St. John Mary Vianney
All gifts, virtues, and graces of the Holy Ghost are administered by the hands of Mary to whomsoever she desires, when she desires, and in the manner she desires, and to whatever degree she desires.
St. Bernardine of Siena
She opens the abyss of God’s mercy to whomsoever she wills, when she wills, and as she wills, so that there is no sinner however great who is lost if Mary protects him . . . All men: past, present, and to come, should look upon Mary as the means and negotiator of the salvation of all ages.
St. Bernard
If our life were not under the protection of Mary, we might tremble for our perseverance and salvation . . . In her hands Jesus has placed His almighty power in the order of salvation. He has confided to her all the means of salvation. All the graces of salvation, both natural and spiritual, will be given to us by Mary. She is rich with the riches of God Himself.
St. Peter Julian Eymard
O Mary, we poor sinners know no other refuge but thee, for thou art our only hope, and on thee do we rely for our salvation.
St. Thomas of Villanova
Unless the prayers of Mary interposed, there could be no hope of mercy.
St. Bridget of Sweden
Mary is the whole hope of our salvation.
St. Thomas Aquinas
The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.
Ven. Pope Pius IX
O, my Lady, next to thy Son Jesus Christ, thou hast always been the chief instrument of our salvation.
St. Dominic
We are debtors to the Blessed Virgin, after Christ, for the redemption of the human race.
St. Peter Damian
Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.
St. John Chrysostom
Only at the intercession of Mary do sinners obtain forgiveness . . . They receive pardon only by the intercession of Mary.
St. Peter Chrysologus
There is no one in the world who, if he asks for it, does not partake of the Divine mercy through the tenderness of Mary.
St. Agnes
O Mary, come to my aid or I am lost!
“You stated...”
If you can’t reply to my post, please stop repeating the same statement over and over again.
“This is a different argument. At first you claimed the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a diety (which you’ve since backed out on.””
You simply hope and imagine that I’ve backed away from something. I have always argued that Mary is made a God in Roman Catholic theology, though they do so consequently and not directly. That should be pretty obvious from the beginning, and I’ve gone over it a couple of times. I won’t do it again unless you address it.
“I’ve already shown that Mary’s ability to intercede is also possessed by other saints in heaven too.”
If by “shown,” you mean that you just said so like you’re saying now, I guess you have, but all you’ve shown is your assertion. You’ve yet to explain why Mary has a special role as Medaitrix, or why so many Popes and Saints have placed Mary into the salvation formula, or how Mary’s prayers can save us from death, or how she can give us gifts of salvation, etc. You also haven’t explained how a human spirit can hear and understand all the billions of prayers according to Catholic teaching. You offered some nonsense about “time,” but didn’t explain how she can be in more than one place at a time, even if “time” was nearly stopped. You didn’t acknowledge Catholic teaching which states that Mary personally hears each prayer, which is another problem for your “Time for her is really slow!” theory. There’s no actual Heavenly UPS system. I was just making fun of the entire idea when I was going on about that. If Mary is personally hearing each prayer, no matter how slow time is, she can’t be in more than one place at a time. It takes me two seconds just to utter the phrase “Hail Mary.” If another guy starts at the same time I do, I guess Mary won’t hear his prayer. If she did, she’s omnipresent and omniscient, which are attributes of God.
“Where does the Catholic church teach that Mary ‘judges the hearts of men?” “
If you’re going to answer a Hail Mary, you have to know the heart of the person praying, the motivation for the prayer, etc.
Pro_15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Of course, maybe Mary is close to the wicked, insomuch that she can’t tell the difference between the wicked and the righteous in the miliseconds of time she has to move from one guy who is praying to another. She has to hear it, intercede, move on to the next guy, and it’s a never ending job since you Catholics just repeat the same thing over and over again.
“As pointed out to you previously, intercession and mediation are two different things. Mary intercedes. Christ mediates.”
You pointed nothing out, except blandly asserting that there is a difference between the Mediator who intercedes and the intercessor who mediates.
“Meaning it was devastating to your thesis that the saints are dead, not alive.’
I like how you declare how devastating your arguments are when they’re utterly useless half the time, and wrong when I take the time to correct them.
“Your eschatology is an invention of Luther, btw. There’s no evidence of it from scripture.”
Revelations chapter 20 is part of the scripture. And if you go to a grave site right now, you will notice that there are still dead bodies there. The souls in heaven are not resurrected. They need their bodies to do that.
Whatever the case, whether you consider the souls in heaven living without their bodies or not, I also am currently alive and yet cannot hear your prayers to Mary unless you’re right next to me. You’re wasting my time with these irrelevant distractions.
“Nonsense. Atonement requires Christ to be fully God and Fully man. This is basic christian doctrine.”
I’m starting to think half of what you say is designed just to sidetrack me.
“Meaning that Mary has all the time she needs to read the prayers.”
LOL, so you really did take my heavenly UPS system thing seriously. That’s funny.
“One, we don’t pray to mary, we ask Mary to pray for us.”
I already disproved this.
“Does the prayer of Mary deliver your soul from death, yes or no?”
Is it a ‘requirement’ of salvation? No. I rest my case. The Catholic church does not teach that one must ask Mary to pray for them in order to be saved, just the opposite.
I’m sorry you don’t like what the catechism does say, so lets stop ‘making things up’.
“If you can’t reply to my post, please stop repeating the same statement over and over again.’
So you’re recanting the post where you said that the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a god?
“You simply hope and imagine that I’ve backed away from something.”
You went from the very clear statement, “the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a god”, to denying you ever said it!
“I have always argued that Mary is made a God in Roman Catholic theology”
So why then can’t you find that statement in the catechism? The statement, “mary is a diety”.
Could it be that it’s simply what you believe the Catholic church teaches and not what the Catholic church actually teaches.
“You’ve yet to explain why Mary has a special role as Medaitrix”
Mary’s role as co-mediatrix is because she’s the Theotokos, mother of God, and shares a human nature with Christ. She ‘participates in the work of salvation’, in bringing Christ into the world.
“You also haven’t explained how a human spirit can hear and understand all the billions of prayers”
I have. You just don’t like the answer. Time not working in heaven the way it works here on Earth. Do you think that if God can exist outside of time, that he can’t make it so that we all understand each other in heaven? Really?
“didn’t explain how she can be in more than one place at a time”
She doesn’t have to be.
“Mary personally hears each prayer”
Why is that impossible in heaven? Again - she has all the time in the world if Heaven is outside of time.
“There’s no actual Heavenly UPS system.”
Says who? The prophet GPH?
“If Mary is personally hearing each prayer, no matter how slow time is, she can’t be in more than one place at a time.”
If time is slow enough she doesn’t have to be.
“If she did, she’s omnipresent and omniscient, which are attributes of God.”
We know that God hears us. Explain to me why God can’t pass our prayer onto Mary?
Here’s a question for you - is Mary praying for us to our benefit or hers? Or both?
“If you’re going to answer a Hail Mary, you have to know the heart of the person praying, the motivation for the prayer”
Ok, except for the fact that Mary doesn’t *answer* the Hail Mary. You’ve got it exactlly backwards. Mary hears the Hail Mary. Mary prays to Christ for all of us, and Christ answers the prayers.
“in the miliseconds of time”
Time doesn’t exist in heaven. She can spend an eternity on just one prayer.
“it’s a never ending job”
And? That’s a bad thing?
“You pointed nothing out, except blandly asserting that there is a difference between the Mediator who intercedes and the intercessor who mediates.”
There is a difference between the two. The one who makes the decisions is the mediator. The one who simply prays for us is an intercessor.
“I like how you declare how devastating your arguments are when they’re utterly useless half the time, and wrong when I take the time to correct them.”
So you’re calling Christ a liar now when he says, “I am a God of the living, not of the dead?” It’s very clear. The Saints are alive in heaven.
“Revelations chapter 20 is part of the scripture. And if you go to a grave site right now, you will notice that there are still dead bodies there. The souls in heaven are not resurrected. They need their bodies to do that.”
What do you make of the part in the Gospels where it talks about how the dead walked after the death of Christ on the cross?
“I also am currently alive and yet cannot hear your prayers to Mary unless you’re right next to me.”
Are you in heaven? No? Then I guess that answers that.
“I’m starting to think half of what you say is designed just to sidetrack me.”
Do you believe that Christ is fully God and fully Man?
“LOL, so you really did take my heavenly UPS system thing seriously. That’s funny.”
You say it can’t work that way. I’m mystified as to why. The centurion is very clear. “I tell so and so to do something and he does it. You tell so and so to do it and it will be done.”
And what does Christ say,
“I have not found faith like this in all of Israel.”
“I already disproved this.”
By quoting a passage that explicitly refers to prayers to Christ, not Mary.
“s it a ‘requirement’ of salvation? No.”
Mary is the whole hope of our salvation.
St. Thomas Aquinas
The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.
Ven. Pope Pius IX
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
I rest my case.
Are you denying that Mary, and Her unconditional assent, was the intermediary through which God became man to make Redemption possible?
Peace be to you
“You went from the very clear statement blah blah blah”
Seriously, stop misrepresenting what I say and stop repeating yourself. I’m guessing you aren’t going to answer me straight on this.
“I have. You just don’t like the answer. Time not working in heaven the way it works here on Earth. Do you think that if God can exist outside of time, that he can’t make it so that we all understand each other in heaven? Really?”
Seriously, you really do keep repeating yourself. You haven’t explained how, even if Time is totally stopped for Mary in heaven, how she can hear more than one prayer at the same time. We aren’t in eternity. We’re in time, speaking prayers. Remember, the heavenly UPS thing was just a joke on my part. Your religion does not actually teach that she is up in heaven “reading” the prayers, like you wrote. (I’m guessing you’ve never thought about the mechanics of this before, and so you accepted my logic, which was a joke, since it was more logical than the actual Catholic teaching on the matter.) Your religion teaches that Mary is personally hearing each and every prayer in the world.
“Why is that impossible in heaven?”
Because even in heaven, human beings are not omnipresent and omniscient. Going to heaven does not make you God.
“We know that God hears us. Explain to me why God can’t pass our prayer onto Mary?”
It’s rather stupid, for one. So we’re apparently praying to GOD, who passes on the prayer to MARY, who passes it back to GOD. And since God is relying on the judgment of Mary on whether or not to answer the prayer or not, it implies that Mary must have perfect judgment of the hearts of the Catholic believer. Unless God ALSO transmits that judgment too, so the end result Mary is merely repeating what God told her to do in the first place. It’s an absurd and useless system, and it exalts a human being as having an equal place with God.
Dan_4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Whatever the case, the Catholic church does not teach that God is handing Mary any information to solve the problem of her having divine attributes. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary is actually with the believer when he or she prays.
FYI, there is no Biblical support for any of this. All the teaching on prayer in the Bible centers on prayer to the LORD. Not to any human. Even Christ, our Intercessor with the Father, is Himself God.
“There is a difference between the two. The one who makes the decisions is the mediator. The one who simply prays for us is an intercessor.”
There is no such definition in the scripture. When Christ mediates with the Father, by definition He is interceding on our behalf.
in·ter·cede (ntr-sd)
intr.v. in·ter·ced·ed, in·ter·ced·ing, in·ter·cedes
1. To plead on another’s behalf.
2. To act as mediator in a dispute.
Just because the Catholics have invented brand new word definitions and centered their theology around them doesn’t mean I have to accept their definition.
On top of that, there’s no actual argument between God the Son and God the Father, since the argument consists of Christ’s body, being made a curse for us, bleeding to death on the cross. It’s very persuasive. He’s not arguing for our own personal merits, since we’re all sinners. He’s arguing for His own merits, imputed to us as the elect.
IOW, the entire logic of the scriptures makes the idea of someone else going to Christ on your behalf, so Christ can go to the Father, so you can increase your odds of being heard, utterly absurd.
“By quoting a passage that explicitly refers to prayers to Christ, not Mary.”
You’re silly, which is pretty clear from all the other rubbish you accused me of. You even found a way of accusing me of not believing that Christ is fully man and fully God. Your multiple attempts to sidetrack me will not work.
Read the quotes again. They are in reference to Mary and prayer “to her.” Of course, I don’t expect you to actually DO that for me.
“Are you denying that Mary, and Her unconditional assent, was the intermediary through which God became man to make Redemption possible?”
Yes, of course I am, on the basis of her “assent.” It exalts a mortal human being, making it out as if she, because of her grand holiness, agreed to do the work of God by her own sovereign will.
The scripture teaches that the elect are themselves chosen before the creation of the world, and not for their own merits.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
And there is no man or woman on this world who is not condemned under the law:
Rom_3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Are either of those the catechism? ;)
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
If Mary had a sinful human nature - does this mean that Christ, as her son, was also under the taint of original sin?
“If Mary had a sinful human nature - does this mean that Christ, as her son, was also under the taint of original sin?”
Since Christ had no human father, we can expect him to be free from the taint. It passed from Adam, after all, and not from Eve. Not to mention, he’s also GOD. Mary has neither of those two to make her the “all-holy” sinless virgin.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
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