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To: stuartcr
I’ll never understand executing people or going to war because of faith.

Do some research on the history of Munster and maybe you'll change your mind about that. A sect of Anabaptists took over the town government, expelled all of the non-believers, established communism and polygamy, and killed anyone who dissented - including unwilling wives, anyone caught using money, anyone who locked their door, etc. It sort of pre-figured Cambodia by 400 years. It took 18 months for the local ruler to dislodge them during which time tens of thousands of people died. The bodies of the Anabaptists leaders were hung from cages affixed to the church steeple. Those cages are still there today and are a tourist attraction.


9 posted on 05/02/2013 7:29:23 AM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: SeeSharp

Change my mind about what...not understanding why? That is one tourist attraction I wouldn’t go to if someone paid me.


16 posted on 05/02/2013 8:40:42 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: SeeSharp; Alex Murphy
Yea, SS, one of my favorite podcasts just did the Munster story on his show. It is a long episode, 4hrs, but worth the listen. It is a great podcast overall and this story certainly has lots of different twists.

Show 48 - Prophets of Doom[mp3]
Murderous millennial preachers and prophets take over the German city of Munster after Martin Luther unleashes a Pandora's Box of religious anarchy with the Protestant Reformation.

17 posted on 05/02/2013 8:53:15 AM PDT by Theoria
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To: SeeSharp

Tens of thousands killed? Are you sure?

“After the German Peasants’ War (1524/25), a second and more forceful attempt to establish a theocracy was made at Münster, in Westphalia (1532–1535). Here the group had gained considerable influence, through the adhesion of Bernhard Rothmann, the Lutheran pastor, and several prominent citizens; and the leaders, Jan Matthys (also spelled Matthijs, Mathijsz, Matthyssen, Mathyszoon), a baker from Haarlem, and Jan Bockelson or Beukelszoon, a tailor from Leiden, had little difficulty in obtaining possession of the town and deposing the magistrates. Matthys was a follower of Melchior Hoffman, who, after Hoffman’s imprisonment at Strasbourg, obtained a considerable following in the Low Countries, including John of Leiden. John of Leiden and Gerard Boekbinder had visited Münster, and returned with a report that Bernhard Rothmann was there teaching doctrines similar to their own. Matthys identified Münster as the “New Jerusalem”, and on January 5, 1534, a number of his disciples entered the city and introduced adult baptism. Rothmann apparently accepted “rebaptism” that day, and well over 1000 adults were soon baptised. Vigorous preparations were made, not only to hold what had been gained, but to proceed from Münster toward the conquest of the world.

The city was being besieged by Franz von Waldeck, its expelled bishop. In April 1534 on Easter Sunday, Matthys, who had prophesied God’s judgment to come on the wicked on that day, made a sally with only thirty followers, believing that he was a second Gideon, and was cut off with his entire band. He was killed, his head severed and placed on a pole for all in the city to see, and his genitals nailed to the city gate. John of Leiden was subsequently recognized as Matthys’ religious and political successor, justifying his authority and actions by the receipt of visions from heaven. John of Leiden’s authority grew, eventually proclaiming himself to be the successor of David and adopting royal regalia, honors and absolute power in the new “Zion”. He legalized polygamy, and himself took sixteen wives. (John is said to have beheaded one wife himself in the marketplace; this act might have been falsely attributed to him after his death.) Community of goods was also established. Meanwhile, most of the residents of Münster were starving as a result of the year-long siege.

After obstinate resistance, the city was taken by the besiegers on June 24, 1535 and John of Leiden and several other prominent Anabaptist leaders were captured and imprisoned. In January 1536 John of Leiden, Bernhard Knipperdolling and one more prominent follower, were tortured and executed in the marketplace of Münster . Their dead bodies were exhibited in cages, which hung from the steeple of St. Lambert’s Church; the cages still hang there, though the bones were removed later.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion

“On 31 August 1534 a second powerful attack of the besiegers was repulsed after which Jan van Leyden was proclaimed “king of the New Zion” by Johann Dusentschuer (Jeremiah 23:2-6; Ezekiel 37:21). Jan had a throne erected at the market square where he held court. Anybody who opposed the dictator was crushed. One of Jan van Leyden’s ambassadors was Jan van Geelen, who traveled through the Netherlands recruiting followers for the “New Jerusalem” at Münster, distributing Rothmann’s latest book, Van der Wrake (Concerning Revenge), and trying to create “Zions” in the Netherlands at Amsterdam and Bolsward. Jan van Leyden sent out 27 apostles, including Vinne, Klopreis, Stralen, and Slachtscaep, most of whom were put to death. The expected help from the Netherlands could not reach Münster, although individuals succeeded in getting into the city. Jan van Leyden with a small male population managed to keep the enemy outside the walls. The aged and ill were sent outside the city in order to preserve the meager supplies. Finally on 25 June 1535 the bishop’s army gained entrance through betrayal from within. Heinrich Gresbeck led a group through a gate into the city. Jan van Leyden, Bernhard Knipperdolling, and Bernhard Krechting were cruelly tortured, displayed in various parts of the country, and put to death on 23 January 1536. Their corpses were hung on the tower of St. Lambert’s church. The cages are still hanging on the same tower. Most of the male population were put to death; only a few, e.g., Hinrich Krechting managed to escape. Rothmann evidently also escaped, although no trace of him was ever found.”

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/M850.html


20 posted on 05/02/2013 9:03:19 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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