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To: Natural Law
Is there a reason that you only cited 2 of the 33 Canons on Justification? Doing so gives the impression that this was all the Council of Trent had to say on the issue and facilitates distortion. The whole of the Canons on Justification paint a much clearer picture. I would suggest you read them all. You will find that the Church teaching is that good works and merit proceed wholly from the Grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf and in no way from ourselves. They are necessary but they do not earn salvation, which is by grace alone.

You should read my comment again. I said "some of the statements" of the councils and then "such as", then gave canon 24 and 32 as examples from Trent. I distorted nothing. If statements from these councils cannot stand alone in defining their intent, then what good are they? The "whole" of the Canons on Justification from Trent - seeing as its primary purpose was to dispute the Reformation definition of justification by faith apart from works - clearly prescribe anathema against the doctrine as taught in Scripture. If, as you say, the Catholic doctrine teaches works "do not earn salvation" because it is by grace alone, then how can they be "necessary"? Aren't you contradicting yourself? And why are Catholics so quick to tag as a sin of "presumption" the assurance a Christian expresses that he can "know he has eternal life" as I John 5:13 promises?

144 posted on 04/30/2013 9:55:18 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
"I distorted nothing."

You cited 6% (2/33) of the Canons on Justification and then made your closing statement a complete mischaracterization of the Catholic teaching supported only by those partial and out of context citations. Your concluding statement is contrary to the clear statements of the entire Canon of Justification. You went on to say that even though clearly profess what we teach, we actually do not. So, actually you did. These discussions work better when all parties seek the truth.

"Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. - James 3:13-14

Peace be with you

157 posted on 05/01/2013 10:57:47 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: boatbums
"You should read my comment again."

I did: "It's plain to see that Catholicism teaches man’s works are necessary in addition to the work of Jesus Christ for maintaining a state of justification before God and for meriting eternal life."

Yup, still mischaracterized, in spite of all of your Catholic upbringing and education. (Maybe your lack of understanding of Church teaching is what lead you away from the Church, but that is the subject of a different conversation). You are contending that Catholic teaching is that works are in some way efficacious. They are not. They are necessarily indicative of Salvation, meaning that if you are saved spiritual and corporeal works of mercy will proceed from you. It is not that those works are the cause of Salvation or the retention of Salvation.

Peace be with you.

165 posted on 05/01/2013 12:45:58 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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