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The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Most people assume that everything that bears the label "Christian" must have originated with Jesus Christ and His early followers. But this is definitely not the case. All we have to do is look at the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles to see that this is clearly not true.

The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).

You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-19, 26; 4:1-3).

Barely two decades after Christ's death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that many believers were already "turning away . . . to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6). He wrote that he was forced to contend with "false apostles, deceitful workers" who were fraudulently "transforming themselves into apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). One of the major problems he had to deal with was "false brethren" (verse 26).

By late in the first century, as we see from 3 John 9-10, conditions had grown so dire that false ministers openly refused to receive representatives of the apostle John and were excommunicating true Christians from the Church!

Of this troubling period Edward Gibbon, the famed historian, wrote in his classic work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire of a "dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church" (1821, Vol. 2, p. 111). It wasn't long before true servants of God became a marginalized and scattered minority among those calling themselves Christian. A very different religion, now compromised with many concepts and practices rooted in ancient paganism (such mixing of religious beliefs being known as syncretism, common in the Roman Empire at the time), took hold and transformed the faith founded by Jesus Christ.

Historian Jesse Hurlbut says of this time of transformation: "We name the last generation of the first century, from 68 to 100 A.D., 'The Age of Shadows,' partly because the gloom of persecution was over the church, but more especially because of all the periods in the [church's] history, it is the one about which we know the least. We have no longer the clear light of the Book of Acts to guide us; and no author of that age has filled the blank in the history . . ."For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul" ( The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).

This "very different" church would grow in power and influence, and within a few short centuries would come to dominate even the mighty Roman Empire! By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching "another Jesus" and a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9).

Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict

This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. Was He man? Was He God? Was He God appearing as a man? Was He an illusion? Was He a mere man who became God? Was He created by God the Father, or did He exist eternally with the Father?

All of these ideas had their proponents. The unity of belief of the original Church was lost as new beliefs, many borrowed or adapted from pagan religions, replaced the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Let us be clear that when it comes to the intellectual and theological debates in those early centuries that led to the formulation of the Trinity, the true Church was largely absent from the scene, having been driven underground. (See the chapter "The Rise of a Counterfeit Christianity " in our free booklet The Church Jesus Built for an overview of this critical period.).

For this reason, in that stormy period we often see debates not between truth and error, but between one error and a different error— a fact seldom recognized by many modern scholars yet critical for our understanding.

A classic example of this was the dispute over the nature of Christ that led the Roman emperor Constantine the Great to convene the Council of Nicaea (in modern-day western Turkey) in A.D. 325.

Constantine, although held by many to be the first "Christian" Roman Emperor, was actually a sun-worshiper who was only baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest son and his wife murdered. He was also vehemently anti-Semitic, referring in one of his edicts to "the detestable Jewish crowd" and "the customs of these most wicked men"—customs that were in fact rooted in the Bible and practiced by Jesus and the apostles.

As emperor in a period of great tumult within the Roman Empire, Constantine was challenged with keeping the empire unified. He recognized the value of religion in uniting his empire. This was, in fact, one of his primary motivations in accepting and sanctioning the "Christian" religion (which, by this time, had drifted far from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles and was Christian in name only)

. But now Constantine faced a new challenge. Religion researcher Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God that "one of the first problems that had to be solved was the doctrine of God . . . a new danger arose from within which split Christians into bitterly warring camps" (1993, p. 106).

Debate over the nature of God at the Council of Nicaea

Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 as much for political reasons—for unity in the empire—as religious ones. The primary issue at that time came to be known as the Arian controversy.

"In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius, who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.

"Constantine himself of course neither knew nor cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (Arthur Cushman McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, 1954, Vol. 1, p. 258).

Arius, a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Christ, because He was the Son of God, must have had a beginning and therefore was a special creation of God. Further, if Jesus was the Son, the Father of necessity must be older. Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria. His view was an early form of Trinitarianism wherein the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one but at the same time distinct from each other.

The decision as to which view the church council would accept was to a large extent arbitrary. Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God: "When the bishops gathered at Nicaea on May 20, 325, to resolve the crisis, very few would have shared Athanasius's view of Christ. Most held a position midway between Athanasius and Arius" (p. 110).

As emperor, Constantine was in the unusual position of deciding church doctrine even though he was not really a Christian. (The following year is when he had both his wife and son murdered, as previously mentioned).

Historian Henry Chadwick attests, "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun" ( The Early Church, 1993, p. 122). As to the emperor's embrace of Christianity, Chadwick admits, "His conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear" (p. 125).

Chadwick does say that Constantine's deathbed baptism itself "implies no doubt about his Christian belief," it being common for rulers to put off baptism to avoid accountability for things like torture and executing criminals (p. 127). But this justification doesn't really help the case for the emperor's conversion being genuine.

Norbert Brox, a professor of church history, confirms that Constantine was never actually a converted Christian: "Constantine did not experience any conversion; there are no signs of a change of faith in him. He never said of himself that he had turned to another god . . . At the time when he turned to Christianity, for him this was Sol Invictus (the victorious sun god)" ( A Concise History of the Early Church, 1996, p. 48).

When it came to the Nicene Council, The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination" (1971 edition, Vol. 6, "Constantine," p. 386).

With the emperor's approval, the Council rejected the minority view of Arius and, having nothing definitive with which to replace it, approved the view of Athanasius—also a minority view. The church was left in the odd position of officially supporting, from that point forward, the decision made at Nicaea to endorse a belief held by only a minority of those attending.

The groundwork for official acceptance of the Trinity was now laid—but it took more than three centuries after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for this unbiblical teaching to emerge!

Nicene decision didn't end the debate

The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy. Karen Armstrong explains: "Athanasius managed to impose his theology on the delegates . . . with the emperor breathing down their necks . . .

"The show of agreement pleased Constantine, who had no understanding of the theological issues, but in fact there was no unanimity at Nicaea. After the council, the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Arius and his followers fought back and managed to regain imperial favor. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. It was very difficult to make his creed stick" (pp. 110-111).

The ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome" ( The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). Atrociously, while claiming to be Christian many believers fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God!

Of the following decades, Professor Harold Brown, cited earlier, writes: "During the middle decades of this century, from 340 to 380, the history of doctrine looks more like the history of court and church intrigues and social unrest . . . The central doctrines hammered out in this period often appear to have been put through by intrigue or mob violence rather than by the common consent of Christendom led by the Holy Spirit" (p. 119).

Debate shifts to the nature of the Holy Spirit

Disagreements soon centered around another issue, the nature of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, the statement issued at the Council of Nicaea said simply, "We believe in the Holy Spirit." This "seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought," writes Karen Armstrong. "People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more?" (p. 115).

Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier,writes, "In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius' view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.

These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all "trained in Greek philosophy" (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see "Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine," beginning on page 14).

In their view, as Karen Armstrong explains, "the Trinity only made sense as a mystical or spiritual experience . . . It was not a logical or intellectual formulation but an imaginative paradigm that confounded reason. Gregory of Nazianzus made this clear when he explained that contemplation of the Three in One induced a profound and overwhelming emotion that confounded thought and intellectual clarity.

"'No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Three than I am carried back into the One. When I think of any of the Three, I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me'" (p. 117). Little wonder that, as Armstrong concludes, "For many Western Christians . . . the Trinity is simply baffling" (ibid.).

Ongoing disputes lead to the Council of Constantinople

In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine's death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.

Historian Charles Freeman states: "Virtually nothing is known of the theological debates of the council of 381, but Gregory was certainly hoping to get some acceptance of his belief that the Spirit was consubstantial with the Father [meaning that the persons are of the same being, as substance in this context denotes individual quality].

"Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the 'Macedonians,' bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting 'the Divine Word' of the Trinity on his authority" ( A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).

Gregory soon became ill and had to withdraw from the council. Who would preside now? "So it was that one Nectarius, an elderly city senator who had been a popular prefect in the city as a result of his patronage of the games, but who was still not a baptized Christian, was selected . . . Nectarius appeared to know no theology, and he had to be initiated into the required faith before being baptized and consecrated" (Freeman, pp. 97-98).

Bizarrely, a man who up to this point wasn't a Christian was appointed to preside over a major church council tasked with determining what it would teach regarding the nature of God!

The Trinity becomes official doctrine

The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians "made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture" ( The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, "God," p. 568).

The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . ." The statement also affirmed belief "in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . ."

With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God.

Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council's decision "was to reduce the meanings of the word 'God' from a very large selection of alternatives to one only," such that "when Western man today says 'God' he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else" ( Studies in Christian Antiquity, 1985,pp. 243-244).

Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: "It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor's laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved" (p. 103).

Other beliefs about the nature of God banned

Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: "We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead" (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).

Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: "Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.

"They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" (reproduced in Documents of the Christian Church, Henry Bettenson, editor, 1967, p. 22).

Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly. Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error.

This unusual chain of events is why theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson would summarize the story in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith by noting that the adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of "a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . . In fact it was a process of trial and error (almost of hit and miss), in which the error was by no means all confined to the unorthodox . . . It would be foolish to represent the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as having been achieved by any other way" (1980, p. 172).

They then conclude: "This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, 'How divine is Jesus Christ?' . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one" (p. 175).

Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: "The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . .

"This failure of Christian theology . . . to produce logical justification of the cardinal point in its trinitarian doctrine is of the greatest possible significance. We are forced, even before turning to the question of the vindication of the doctrine by experience, to ask ourselves whether theology or philosophy has ever produced any reasons why its belief should be Trinitarian" ("The Evolution of the Doctrine of the Trinity," published in Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation, A.E.J. Rawlinson, editor, 1928, pp. 221-222). Why believe a teaching that isn't biblical?

This, in brief, is the amazing story of how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be introduced—and how those who refused to accept it came to be branded as heretics or unbelievers.

But should we really base our view of God on a doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible, that wasn't formalized until three centuries after the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, that was debated and argued for decades (not to mention for centuries since), that was imposed by religious councils presided over by novices or nonbelievers and that was "decided by the method of trial and error"?

Of course not. We should instead look to the Word of God—not to ideas of men—to see how our Creator reveals Himself!


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: god; jesus; origins; trinity
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To: kosciusko51

“Therefore, did they teach in error, or did they teach what they were taught by the Apostles?”

This teaching of a triune god didn’t come from the Apostles so it was taught in error.

Which is not surprising, this Jesus foretold. (Matt. 13:26)


501 posted on 04/21/2013 10:02:10 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
So, you are saying, that on the fundamental tenets of the faith, who Jesus is, the church was wrong immediately after the Apostles?

If such a group can be so easily deceived, and many have believed it since then, how can you be so sure you are right? Perhaps it is you who are being deceived.

In the whole of things, I will take the early church witness and their ability to discern the Word properly over your ability to discern the Word properly.

502 posted on 04/21/2013 10:23:00 PM PDT by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: kosciusko51

It’s past my nappy time, back later zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


503 posted on 04/21/2013 10:23:27 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Natural Law

Natural Law,

Thank you.

Grace and Peace,
K51


504 posted on 04/21/2013 10:28:35 PM PDT by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Hey, OLOFOB, isn’t there enough meat in this thread to chew on with people who don’t believe in the deity of Jesus and the Trinity that you have to try to turn it into another Catholic VS. Protestant argument? Can we not be allies on even this one thing??? Be on the same side for once!


505 posted on 04/21/2013 11:28:30 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: count-your-change; kosciusko51
... one “essence” whatever is meant by essence?

n

1. the characteristic or intrinsic feature of a thing, which determines its identity; fundamental nature

_______________

Word Origin & History

essence
late 14c., from L. essentia "being, essence," abstract n. formed in imitation of Gk. ousia "being, essence" (from on, gen. ontos, prp. of einai "to be"), from prp. stem of esse "to be," from PIE *es- (cf. Skt. asmi, Hittite eimi, O.C.S. jesmi, Lith. esmi, Goth. imi, O.E. eom "I am;"

_____________________

Colossians 2:9

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (NKJV, KJV, ASV). Or: "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (NASB, RSV, NIV is similar).

"Fulness" (plerooma) means " ... that which is brought to fulness or completion ... sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance ... of something ... the full measure of deity ... Colossians 2:9" - Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich.

"Godhead" or "Deity" (theotes) means: " ... the state of being God, Godhead ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Trench says the language here means Jesus "was, and is, absolute and perfect God" (quoted in Vine, Vol. I, pp. 328f).

So the passage says that, in Jesus dwelt bodily "the full measure of" "the state of being God."

[Some claim that Jesus possesses only the characteristics of God, not His essence or substance. This confuses the language. The word used here for "Deity" (theotes) means the essence or state of being God. A different word (theiotes) means "divinity" or the characteristics of God. (See the definitions.) Nevertheless, how could Jesus possess "all the full measure of the characteristics of God in a bodily form" without being God? Even if the mistaken definition were accurate, the passage would still prove Jesus is God.]

Hebrews 1:3

Jesus was "the express image of His [the Father's] person" (NKJV, KJV) or "the very image of his substance" (ASV), "the exact representation of His nature" (NASB), "the exact representation of his being" (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped (as will be considered in more detail later.)

"Express image" (charachter) means "the exact expression ... of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect (cf. facsimile) ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer (cf. Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich).

"Person" (hupostasis) mean "the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Or "...substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality ... a(n exact) representation of his (= God's) real being Hebrews 1:3..." - Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich.

Hence, Jesus is "the precise reproduction in every respect" of the "essence, actual being, reality" of God. How can Jesus be an exact expression of the real being of the Father without Himself possessing true Deity?

We will see that God possesses certain characteristics that are so unique that no one but God can possess them (eternal, all-powerful, etc.). If no one but God possesses these, yet Jesus is the exact reproduction of the essence of God's nature, then He must possess these qualities. But if Jesus possesses all qualities that are unique to God, He must be God, He must possess Deity.
I. General Passages Affirming Jesus' Deity

Cordially,

506 posted on 04/22/2013 5:37:38 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Natural Law
The term is the same but in heaven Christ remains our advocate, the one mediator. In John 14 Jesus acknowledges He is a Paraclete, but says another one will be sent."

That is a wonderful response, to which there is no reply at all thus far.

And if memory serves, just to pile on, the Greek "allos for "another" in that John 14 passage means "another of like kind".

Thank you for reminding me!

Cordially,

507 posted on 04/22/2013 6:09:51 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: kosciusko51; Greetings_Puny_Humans; one Lord one faith one baptism; Natural Law; boatbums; ...
If you believe Protestants don't believe in the One, Holy Universal(Catholic) and Apostolic Church, you don't understand us. What we don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church. When you add Roman, you deny universality.

Very succinctly put. Thank you.

What we also don't believe is that the Roman Catholic church is IT. Nor do we believe ANY denomination is IT.

The body of Christ as referring to in Scripture is NOT an organization but an organism, nor one particular group or assembly of believers over against another. We don't believe that membership in said organization is what makes one a Christian.

What makes one a Christian is faith in Jesus, not an initiation into any group by any means. The body of Christ transcends denominational lines.

I have no doubt that there are true believers who are Catholic, but they are not believers because they are Catholic, nor are they Catholic because they are believers. Believers are believers. Likewise, there are unbelievers who are Catholic, but they are not unbelievers because they are Catholic nor any other denomination.

I daresay, there are even believers in some cults if those ensnared in them do not fully grasp the error they've fallen into (or were born into or dragged into by a spouse) but have sincere faith in Jesus.

In which case, He will keep them and deliver them from that.

508 posted on 04/22/2013 6:45:08 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: count-your-change

Good boy.

What a cookie?


509 posted on 04/22/2013 6:51:20 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

My machine is chock full of ‘em.


510 posted on 04/22/2013 7:15:00 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kosciusko51
No, I don't think Paul was polytheist. He said those worshiped by pagans were false and the power behind them was Satan and his demons.
Not every question lends its self to yes or no answers without explanation. For example:

“Jesus said to him, ‘Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.’”, unless he is God. And if He is God, He is the One and Only God. But yet, He is God the Son”

In your comment the “He” is Jesus so you would be saying here,.....” unless he (Jesus)is God. And if He(Jesus) is God, He (Jesus) is the One and Only God. But yet, He(Jesus) is God the Son”, correct?

But Paul had said to the Corinthians that the one God was the Father. Earlier the resurrected Jesus called his Father his(Jesus’) God...so you can see how I might misunderstand your meaning. I apologize and will ask for more clarification in the future.

When I look at John 1:18 it's clear enough that “the only begotten God” is the Son since John says he in this position with “the Father”. But neither John nor anyone else in the Scriptures speaks of a “Second Person of the Godhead”

In fact Paul calls Jesus an ‘eikon’(icon, representation or image) of the invisible God, not a “Second Person” in a Godhead. (Col.1:15)

“Paul say clearly states that the Son created all things, and yet also says the God created all things.”

Remember Paul used the Greek words ‘ek’ and ‘dia’ when referring to the creation. Here in Col. chapter one Paul says all things were created “dia” the Son, “dia” meaning a channel or means not the originator. So the Son can be called creator since the Father worked “dia” him or through him just as a workman could say he built something and so could the owner of the company.

The Scriptures you cite when examined speak not to a trinity but a father - son, creator and creation relationship not a three person, all equal Godhead.

511 posted on 04/22/2013 9:38:09 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kosciusko51
My turn for a question....Do you understand the significance of that verse I referred to? Matt. 13:26? I think it may answer some of yours.
512 posted on 04/22/2013 9:44:46 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change

Yes, there will always be those false teachers in the Church, even in the days of the Apostles, and even until today. But again, on this matter, I trust the early church fathers to rightly explain the Word of God more than I trust you.


513 posted on 04/22/2013 9:54:41 AM PDT by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: count-your-change; Diamond
In fact Paul calls Jesus an ‘eikon’(icon, representation or image) of the invisible God, not a “Second Person” in a Godhead. (Col.1:15)

As Diamond has pointed out in Post #506, in the same letter (Col 2:9), "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;", and Diamond points out that "Hence, Jesus is 'the precise reproduction in every respect' of the 'essence, actual being, reality' of God. How can Jesus be an exact expression of the real being of the Father without Himself possessing true Deity?"

Finally, this is what I believe about the Trinity, which has been summed up in the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Question 5: What do the Scriptures principally teach?

Answer: The Scriptures principally teach,: What man is to believe concerning God, and: What duty God requires of man.

Question 6: What do the Scriptures make known of God?

Answer: The Scriptures make known: What God is, the persons in the Godhead, his decrees, and the execution of his decrees.

Question 7: What is God?

Answer: God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

Question 8: Are there more Gods than one?

Answer: There is but one only, the living and true God.

Question 9: How many persons are there in the Godhead?

Answer: There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.

Question 10: What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead?

Answer: It is proper to the Father to beget the Son, and to the Son to be begotten of the Father, and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.

Question 11: How does it appear that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father?

Answer: The Scriptures manifest that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father, ascribing unto them such names, attributes, works, and worship, as are proper to God only.

I can present a long list of scriptural proofs for these beliefs, if you want, but I'm afraid it again will fall on deaf ears.

514 posted on 04/22/2013 10:11:11 AM PDT by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: Diamond
In saying Jesus must be God the rest of your answers. He is called “a representation, express image, exact copy, reflection, none of which point to him as the person being imaged or producing the reflection.

A reproduction or copy of a thing is not the thing its self.

“”Express image” (charachter) means “the exact expression ... of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect (cf. facsimile) ...” - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer (cf. Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich).’

Hence Jesus is not being called THE God, but a likeness, image. The Son cannot be an image of the Father and be the Father too.

“”Godhead” or “Deity” (theotes) means: “ ... the state of being God, Godhead ...” - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Trench says the language here means Jesus “was, and is, absolute and perfect God” (quoted in Vine, Vol. I, pp. 328f).”

At this same entry under Divinity theiotes (Romans 1:20) is distinguished from theotes (Col. 2:9)
Strongs gives gives the same meaning to each word. Trench can interpret as he wishes but that's what it is, not translation.

515 posted on 04/22/2013 11:17:03 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kosciusko51

“I can present a long list of scriptural proofs for these beliefs, if you want, but I’m afraid it again will fall on deaf ears.”

You’ve already presented a long list of “proofs” and when looked at closely have turned out to not be “proofs” of the trinity doctrine and in fact quite the the opposite.

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it.

As for Catechisms...I don’t much read them, I prefer to talk to people to see what they believe.


516 posted on 04/22/2013 11:26:02 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kosciusko51

As you wish. I’m sure you understand too then the rest that parable and the basis on which the angels are separating the weeds and wheat. Cheers!


517 posted on 04/22/2013 11:33:19 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
"I’m sure you understand too then the rest that parable and the basis on which the angels are separating the weeds and wheat."

Parables cannot be explained. They are abstractions that seek to "shadow forth" the mysteries of the God and Kingdom of Heaven. They appeal uniquely to the experiences of each hearer. Had Jesus wanted to make a definitive statement He most assuredly would have. When anyone claims to be able to explain a parable they are assuming to themselves a task entrusted by Jesus only to the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you

518 posted on 04/22/2013 12:50:30 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: boatbums
I don't have any “gospels” other than those written but the Scriptures say several things are necessary to salvation.

Some are: endurance to the end, repentance from the former life of sin, belief in Jehovah and His Son, taking in accurate knowledge....not the whole of it by any means....

Were you looking for a list or what?

519 posted on 04/22/2013 3:21:47 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kosciusko51
are more willing to talk about the mote in their brother' eye instead of the log in their own.

I am more willing to talk about their belief in man made teachings and not the teachings of God's Word ALONE.

520 posted on 04/22/2013 4:38:16 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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