The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

[count-your-change]

“Therefore, did they teach in error, or did they teach what they were taught by the Apostles?”

This teaching of a triune god didn’t come from the Apostles so it was taught in error.

Which is not surprising, this Jesus foretold. (Matt. 13:26)

[kosciusko51]

So, you are saying, that on the fundamental tenets of the faith, who Jesus is, the church was wrong immediately after the Apostles?

If such a group can be so easily deceived, and many have believed it since then, how can you be so sure you are right? Perhaps it is you who are being deceived.

In the whole of things, I will take the early church witness and their ability to discern the Word properly over your ability to discern the Word properly.

[count-your-change]

It’s past my nappy time, back later zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[kosciusko51]

Natural Law,

Thank you.

Grace and Peace,
K51

[boatbums]

Hey, OLOFOB, isn’t there enough meat in this thread to chew on with people who don’t believe in the deity of Jesus and the Trinity that you have to try to turn it into another Catholic VS. Protestant argument? Can we not be allies on even this one thing??? Be on the same side for once!

[Diamond]

... one “essence” whatever is meant by essence?

— n

1.

the characteristic or intrinsic feature of a thing, which determines its identity; fundamental nature _______________ Word Origin & History essence late 14c., from L. essentia "being, essence," abstract n. formed in imitation of Gk. ousia "being, essence" (from on, gen. ontos, prp. of einai "to be"), from prp. stem of esse "to be," from PIE *es- (cf. Skt. asmi, Hittite eimi, O.C.S. jesmi, Lith. esmi, Goth. imi, O.E. eom "I am;"

_____________________

Colossians 2:9

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (NKJV, KJV, ASV). Or: "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (NASB, RSV, NIV is similar).

"Fulness" (plerooma) means " ... that which is brought to fulness or completion ... sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance ... of something ... the full measure of deity ... Colossians 2:9" - Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich.

"Godhead" or "Deity" (theotes) means: " ... the state of being God, Godhead ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Trench says the language here means Jesus "was, and is, absolute and perfect God" (quoted in Vine, Vol. I, pp. 328f).

So the passage says that, in Jesus dwelt bodily "the full measure of" "the state of being God."

[Some claim that Jesus possesses only the characteristics of God, not His essence or substance. This confuses the language. The word used here for "Deity" (theotes) means the essence or state of being God. A different word (theiotes) means "divinity" or the characteristics of God. (See the definitions.) Nevertheless, how could Jesus possess "all the full measure of the characteristics of God in a bodily form" without being God? Even if the mistaken definition were accurate, the passage would still prove Jesus is God.]

Hebrews 1:3

Jesus was "the express image of His [the Father's] person" (NKJV, KJV) or "the very image of his substance" (ASV), "the exact representation of His nature" (NASB), "the exact representation of his being" (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped (as will be considered in more detail later.)

"Express image" (charachter) means "the exact expression ... of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect (cf. facsimile) ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer (cf. Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich).

"Person" (hupostasis) mean "the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing ..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Or "...substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality ... a(n exact) representation of his (= God's) real being Hebrews 1:3..." - Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich.

Hence, Jesus is "the precise reproduction in every respect" of the "essence, actual being, reality" of God. How can Jesus be an exact expression of the real being of the Father without Himself possessing true Deity?

We will see that God possesses certain characteristics that are so unique that no one but God can possess them (eternal, all-powerful, etc.). If no one but God possesses these, yet Jesus is the exact reproduction of the essence of God's nature, then He must possess these qualities. But if Jesus possesses all qualities that are unique to God, He must be God, He must possess Deity.
I. General Passages Affirming Jesus' Deity

Cordially,

[Diamond]

The term is the same but in heaven Christ remains our advocate, the one mediator. In John 14 Jesus acknowledges He is a Paraclete, but says another one will be sent."

That is a wonderful response, to which there is no reply at all thus far.

And if memory serves, just to pile on, the Greek "allos for "another" in that John 14 passage means "another of like kind".

Thank you for reminding me!

Cordially,

[metmom]

If you believe Protestants don't believe in the One, Holy Universal(Catholic) and Apostolic Church, you don't understand us. What we don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church. When you add Roman, you deny universality.

Very succinctly put. Thank you.

What we also don't believe is that the Roman Catholic church is IT. Nor do we believe ANY denomination is IT.

The body of Christ as referring to in Scripture is NOT an organization but an organism, nor one particular group or assembly of believers over against another. We don't believe that membership in said organization is what makes one a Christian.

What makes one a Christian is faith in Jesus, not an initiation into any group by any means. The body of Christ transcends denominational lines.

I have no doubt that there are true believers who are Catholic, but they are not believers because they are Catholic, nor are they Catholic because they are believers. Believers are believers. Likewise, there are unbelievers who are Catholic, but they are not unbelievers because they are Catholic nor any other denomination.

I daresay, there are even believers in some cults if those ensnared in them do not fully grasp the error they've fallen into (or were born into or dragged into by a spouse) but have sincere faith in Jesus.

In which case, He will keep them and deliver them from that.

[metmom]

Good boy.

What a cookie?

[count-your-change]

My machine is chock full of ‘em.

[count-your-change]

No, I don't think Paul was polytheist. He said those worshiped by pagans were false and the power behind them was Satan and his demons.
Not every question lends its self to yes or no answers without explanation. For example:

“Jesus said to him, ‘Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.’”, unless he is God. And if He is God, He is the One and Only God. But yet, He is God the Son”

In your comment the “He” is Jesus so you would be saying here,.....” unless he (Jesus)is God. And if He(Jesus) is God, He (Jesus) is the One and Only God. But yet, He(Jesus) is God the Son”, correct?

But Paul had said to the Corinthians that the one God was the Father. Earlier the resurrected Jesus called his Father his(Jesus’) God...so you can see how I might misunderstand your meaning. I apologize and will ask for more clarification in the future.

When I look at John 1:18 it's clear enough that “the only begotten God” is the Son since John says he in this position with “the Father”. But neither John nor anyone else in the Scriptures speaks of a “Second Person of the Godhead”

In fact Paul calls Jesus an ‘eikon’(icon, representation or image) of the invisible God, not a “Second Person” in a Godhead. (Col.1:15)

“Paul say clearly states that the Son created all things, and yet also says the God created all things.”

Remember Paul used the Greek words ‘ek’ and ‘dia’ when referring to the creation. Here in Col. chapter one Paul says all things were created “dia” the Son, “dia” meaning a channel or means not the originator. So the Son can be called creator since the Father worked “dia” him or through him just as a workman could say he built something and so could the owner of the company.

The Scriptures you cite when examined speak not to a trinity but a father - son, creator and creation relationship not a three person, all equal Godhead.

[count-your-change]

My turn for a question....Do you understand the significance of that verse I referred to? Matt. 13:26? I think it may answer some of yours.

[kosciusko51]

Yes, there will always be those false teachers in the Church, even in the days of the Apostles, and even until today. But again, on this matter, I trust the early church fathers to rightly explain the Word of God more than I trust you.

[kosciusko51]

In fact Paul calls Jesus an ‘eikon’(icon, representation or image) of the invisible God, not a “Second Person” in a Godhead. (Col.1:15)

As Diamond has pointed out in Post #506, in the same letter (Col 2:9), "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;", and Diamond points out that "Hence, Jesus is 'the precise reproduction in every respect' of the 'essence, actual being, reality' of God. How can Jesus be an exact expression of the real being of the Father without Himself possessing true Deity?"

Finally, this is what I believe about the Trinity, which has been summed up in the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Question 5: What do the Scriptures principally teach?

Answer: The Scriptures principally teach,: What man is to believe concerning God, and: What duty God requires of man.

Question 6: What do the Scriptures make known of God?

Answer: The Scriptures make known: What God is, the persons in the Godhead, his decrees, and the execution of his decrees.

Question 7: What is God?

Answer: God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

Question 8: Are there more Gods than one?

Answer: There is but one only, the living and true God.

Question 9: How many persons are there in the Godhead?

Answer: There be three persons in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one true, eternal God, the same in substance, equal in power and glory; although distinguished by their personal properties.

Question 10: What are the personal properties of the three persons in the Godhead?

Answer: It is proper to the Father to beget the Son, and to the Son to be begotten of the Father, and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity.

Question 11: How does it appear that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father?

Answer: The Scriptures manifest that the Son and the Holy Ghost are God equal with the Father, ascribing unto them such names, attributes, works, and worship, as are proper to God only.

I can present a long list of scriptural proofs for these beliefs, if you want, but I'm afraid it again will fall on deaf ears.

[count-your-change]

In saying Jesus must be God the rest of your answers. He is called “a representation, express image, exact copy, reflection, none of which point to him as the person being imaged or producing the reflection.

A reproduction or copy of a thing is not the thing its self.

“”Express image” (charachter) means “the exact expression ... of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect (cf. facsimile) ...” - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer (cf. Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich).’

Hence Jesus is not being called THE God, but a likeness, image. The Son cannot be an image of the Father and be the Father too.

“”Godhead” or “Deity” (theotes) means: “ ... the state of being God, Godhead ...” - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer. Trench says the language here means Jesus “was, and is, absolute and perfect God” (quoted in Vine, Vol. I, pp. 328f).”

At this same entry under Divinity theiotes (Romans 1:20) is distinguished from theotes (Col. 2:9)
Strongs gives gives the same meaning to each word. Trench can interpret as he wishes but that's what it is, not translation.

[count-your-change]

“I can present a long list of scriptural proofs for these beliefs, if you want, but I’m afraid it again will fall on deaf ears.”

You’ve already presented a long list of “proofs” and when looked at closely have turned out to not be “proofs” of the trinity doctrine and in fact quite the the opposite.

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it.

As for Catechisms...I don’t much read them, I prefer to talk to people to see what they believe.

[count-your-change]

As you wish. I’m sure you understand too then the rest that parable and the basis on which the angels are separating the weeds and wheat. Cheers!

[Natural Law]

"I’m sure you understand too then the rest that parable and the basis on which the angels are separating the weeds and wheat."

Parables cannot be explained. They are abstractions that seek to "shadow forth" the mysteries of the God and Kingdom of Heaven. They appeal uniquely to the experiences of each hearer. Had Jesus wanted to make a definitive statement He most assuredly would have. When anyone claims to be able to explain a parable they are assuming to themselves a task entrusted by Jesus only to the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you

[count-your-change]

I don't have any “gospels” other than those written but the Scriptures say several things are necessary to salvation.

Some are: endurance to the end, repentance from the former life of sin, belief in Jehovah and His Son, taking in accurate knowledge....not the whole of it by any means....

Were you looking for a list or what?

[presently no screen name]

are more willing to talk about the mote in their brother' eye instead of the log in their own.

I am more willing to talk about their belief in man made teachings and not the teachings of God's Word ALONE.