Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC
Incorrect historically.
the Jews were a minor bug. They lived in a back-water far from the Imperial heartland and didn't disrupt trade with Egypt which went by ship.
Egypt was critical to the Empire for grain. Syria was critical as a hold-out against the Parthians.
Israel and it's revolts didn't matter too much
The Roman Empire hated Carthage, it hated the Parthians, it hated the Dacians.
Even it's own italic neighbors had risen against them numerous times
The Empire co-opted these, and as shown by Josephus, it fully knew it would co-opt the Judeans as well.
In the Urbe scheme of things the Judeans did not count to the Imperator or the Senate
do you have any book references or links to the worship form of the Arians?
The Christology of Jehovah's Witnesses is also generally regarded as Arian, Jehovah's Witnesses also believe the Holy Spirit is not an actual person but rather is God’s divine breath, God's power in action, related to another ancient doctrine called Macedonianism,
The Pneumatomachi, also known as Macedonians or Semi-Arians in Constantinople and the Tropici in Alexandria, were an anti-Nicene Creed sect which flourished in the countries adjacent to the Hellespont during the latter half of the fourth, and the beginning of the fifth century. They denied the divinity of the Holy Ghost, hence the Greek name Pneumatomachi or 'Combators against the Spirit'.
The discussion here is whether the Holy Spirit is God or not. Now, either you agree with the OP and state your belief that the Holy Spirit is God, or you don’t agree with him. Which one is it?
And here one thought that you two, met and cb, held to the belief that the Holy Spirit is God.....
While I admit that the same word is used in both John 16:7 and 1 John 2:1, it does not mean the same person, for in one case the Holy Spirit is the Helper who guides the believers on earth, while in the other case Christ is our Advocate to the Father in Heaven.
Also, Jesus clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person, not some emanation from Himself, which has also be demonstrated in other NT passages.
I wouldn't agree with your characterizations....
Start at this wikipedia article about the jewish revolts:
The impact on Judaism and early Christianity was deep and profound...
Scripture references one such Jewish persecution by Rome:
Act 18:2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them.
In other words, if you looked too much like a Jew, you weren't going to be around Rome for too long. If there were any Christians in Rome at this time it's a safe bet that they either altered their religious practices to blend in with society or worshipped in secret.
Thread-poster DouglasKC claims "various" as the source for this article, yet when you click on the link source for this piece, it takes you to a United Church of God Web source.
Who is the United Church of God? It's an offshoot of cultist Herbert W. Armstrong. While much of the post- Armstrong era church sect went orthodox after Armstrong's death, the United Church of God has been around a grand total of 18 years...and elected to keep the following cultic elements:
(Source is United Church of God per Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry -- I won't pull a "douglas" here and claim the source is "various"):
The United Church of God is a non-Christian cult that denies the Trinity, the true divinity of Christ, and requires both baptism and obedience to the commandments to be saved. It teaches that there is a "God family" of which we can become members through keeping the Law. Jesus is one of two divine beings, the Father being the other. The Holy Spirit is a force, a power, and is not the 3rd person of the Trinity, and it is received only through the laying on of hands by their church members. It also teaches that their members are obligated to keep the Sabbath and must observe seven festivals. They cannot eat unclean meat. This is a false religious system that teaches a false God, false Christ, and false gospel. Stay away from it. Other Teachings: They teach that the wicked, or unsaved, are not alive in hell but are annihilated.
So this "church" ignores Jesus' clear teaching about an everlasting personal hell endured; it ignores the many clear Biblical passages about the personality of the Holy Spirit...you can't lie to an impersonal force in the Book of Acts, for example...you can't grieve an impersonal force; the UCG is polytheistic in teaching a double divine being...
It is an unmistakable truth that there is ONLY one God as repeatedly spoken in Holy Scripture. Yahweh/Jehovah is called Mighty God in numerous places:
Deuteronomy 7:21
Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.
Psalm 50:1
The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
Jeremiah 32:18
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the Lord of hosts, is his name,
Habakkuk 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Excellent points!
Well DUH!
Here try these links instead.
United Church of God-Main Site
My Congregation...if you would like to visit
Free Booklets from United Church of God
Much much more...please visit.
I have no reason to hide my faith or my beliefs...they're all biblical!
I understand your reaction though. Some feel the need to hide their beliefs. Instead of sharing what they believe they tend to attack others because they either lack real faith or have no deep core beliefs. Sometimes they're just small, bitter and angry people who take out their anger on others under the guise of defending Christ.
But hey, takes all kinds...right? :-)
Here's the Greek for your passage:
Ὅτι because/that τρεῖς three (acc, nom) εἰσιν he/she/it-is-GO-ing; they-are οἱ the (nom) μαρτυροῦντες while BEAR-ing--WITNESS (nom|voc) ,
No manuscript says "These three are one". It is a false addition to scripture by purposeful, biased translators.
Well said.........and true!
I frequently see this chapter used as an explanation of many things and it's probably one of the most misinterpreted chapters in the New Testament.
Paul is speaking of inconsequential things.....no big deal! [Romans 14:1] 1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
He is speaking about folks who eat vegetables.....only![14:2] 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
During the first century the new Christians in Rome were in a quandary. On certain days the meat on sale in the Roman meat markets would be meat that had been sacrificed to pagan gods in the various temples throughout the city and then sold, by the pagan priests....to the local meat markets for consumption by the general public. Many of these newly converted Christians felt uncomfortable about consuming meat that had been offered up to pagan gods.
Paul also addresses this same problem in: [I Corinthians 8:4-10] 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
Paul is saying.....if you know it was sacrificed to a pagan god.....then don't eat it. Eat vegetables that day. But.....if you don't know for sure.... then eat it without any guilt (verse 4) because an idol is nothing!
Many of the folks were being critical of those wishing to avoid this "tainted" meat and Paul told them to quit passing judgment on each other (verse 10). The folks who were eating vegetables on those days were fully convinced they were doing the right thing and Paul admonished those who were being critical (verses 22-23).
The word day used in this chapter is not speaking of any day of religious significance. The Greek is HEMERA [14:5] and designates a normal day.....not a Sabbath Day.
Young's Literal Translation: [Romans 14:5]5One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured. 6He who is regarding the day, to the Lord he doth regard [it], and he who is not regarding the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He who is eating, to the Lord he doth eat, for he doth give thanks to God; and he who is not eating, to the Lord he doth not eat, and doth give thanks to God.
Paul is speaking about "fast" days.....days when the meat in the markets would be from the temple priests. Many folks have attempted to use this passage as proof that Sabbath Days are no longer relevant....and that is not the case. He is speaking about eating vegetables on certain days....fasting from meat.
Now....a special mistranslation in this chapter has also thrown many off course since it agrees with the Catholic/Protestant view of things.....but is not scriptural in the slightest (so what else is new).
[Romans 14:14] 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
These words (highlighted) were deliberately mistranslated to support an agenda by the King James scholars. It had long been settled theology by the Catholic Church that God's dietary laws had been done away with and Martin Luther had faithfully followed this position in error....causing The Protestant reformation to accept this nonsense from their Catholic predecessors.
The Greek word is KOINOS and it does not mean "Unclean". It means common or defiled. The meat that was being purchased.... that had previously been sacrificed to pagan idols was now defiled. It had been clean at one time but was now considered common and defiled because of the pagan sacrifice. It was not buzzard meat.....or shrimp....or swine. It was beef, chicken or lamb but was still considered now to be "Common or Defiled" because of the temple ritual.
Here is an example of the Greek word that means unclean "AKATHARTOS": [Revelation 18:2] 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean (AKATHARTOS) and hateful bird.
Here is an example of the word "Common" in scripture: [Acts 11:8] 8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common (KOINOS) or unclean (AKATHARTOS) hath at any time entered into my mouth.
In fact.....both words are used in the same sentence so you will be able to verify the deliberate mistranslation of [Romans 14:14] to agree with the Catholic/Protestant agenda.
Many folks believe the dietary laws of [Leviticus 11] were done away with by Yeshua...... and His Apostles immediately began teaching this nonsense after the resurrection. Well....Peter is here about 10/12 years after the resurrection insisting that nothing "Unclean" had ever entered his mouth....and was shocked by the suggestion that it should.
John....in [Revelation 18:2] is here......60 years after the resurrection still calling some birds "Unclean" and unfit for human consumption.
Romans 14 does not do away with the Sabbath Days of Yahweh....nor does it do away with the dietary laws as expressed in [Leviticus 11]. It does caution new Christians not to criticize their fellows for observing fast days when they knew the meat in the markets had been purchased from the pagan temples throughout the city of Rome and had now become defiled (KOINOS).
Incorrect. There were and are many who do not view the verse as a "false addition" to Scripture. Read a bit further down in your own link to see who they are. Had this been the only passage which spoke of the three being one God, then I seriously doubt the doctrine would have been formalized. As it is, there are numerous Old and New Testament verses which speak to this truth - several that have already been posted on this thread. The deity of Jesus with the Father and Holy Spirit, though not easily grasped by mere human minds, is nonetheless one of the central tenets of the Christian faith that has always been accepted. Rejecting this truth is certainly not a new development but was debated from the start and which the early church fathers utilized the Scriptures to prove it so.
You miss a lot not doing your own research because had you looked in a copy of the LXX you would see that Ex. 3:14 reads not just “I AM” but “I am the one” or “I am the being”. The verb used translates the Hebrew hayah meaning “will be” or “will become” and is used elsewhere in that sense.=, Zech. 2:5. (see also Vines under “to be”).
John 8:57-59
So, how many people can claim the title “I am,” the verb in the present tense, telling us that not only was he BEFORE Abraham, but he was before Abraham because of continuous existence. IOW, he is from everlasting to everlasting.
“I am” is in the present but Jesus was talking about the past extending into the present so his answer would reflect that, thus dozens of translators use phrases like “I have existed” or “have been” to translate the Greek “ego eimi” of John 8:58, 59.
“El-Gibbor is a recognized name of God.”
Gibbor simply means mighty or champion, tyrant, etc. and can be/is used both as an adjective and title of men and God. (see a concordance).
Great post! It's too bad that more people don't take the time to learn a little basic bible study. Koinos and akathartos are important concepts that once understood make scripture come alive!
When an elementary school teacher corrects "Johnny" in the classroom (when Johnny claimed that one times one times one = 3), and the teacher said, "No, Johnny, 1x1x1 = 1" ... she is not simply "attacking" Johnny...as much as the likes of cultists like you would like to reduce truth-telling to... such a teacher is not only telling the truth, she is indeed providing a core "belief" if you will, that, yes, the numbers do "add up" (or in this case ... multiply out correctly).
You seem to present an opinion that pointing out error -- and inserting contrasting truth to those errors -- isn't itself somehow a form of reinserting what those "core beliefs" are per the Bible. (Just because some posters may not comprehensively & systematically dump on the rest of us EVERYTHING they believe in a single thread doesn't mean their beliefs aren't covered by them piece by piece over the long haul).
Now...back to that teacher's "correction" of Johnny:
Class, Douglas & the United Church of God would have you believe there are two divine beings -- God the Father and Jesus Christ. That the Bible proclaims there is ONLY one diving being (1)...and that the NT came along and presented a new math formula of 1+1. But, 1+1 = 2...2 gods...
Douglas & the United Church of God would also have you believe that the Christian church somehow "created" a new numbers' formula...that the OT taught one God, but that the Christian church somehow expanded this.
But, ya know...1x1x1 = 1 was true in Old Testament times; 'twas true during Christ's lifetime; and it's still true today.
The New Testament proclaims: 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form (Colossians 2)
If we think of such "fullness" as volume, we get volume by multiplying height x breadth x length. 'Tis a simple multiplication "truth" Douglas. Doesn't take Platonic philosophy to get 1x1x1, Douglas.
***********
ALL see things like: A better analogy is that space contains three dimensions (length, breadth, height), yet the dimensions are not ‘parts’—the concept of ‘space’ is meaningless without all three dimensions.
Source: Who really is the God of Genesis?
See also: Analogies of the Trinity
Cronos: (post 281): the Jews were a minor bug(to the Roman Empire). They lived in a back-water far from the Imperial heartland and didn't disrupt trade with Egypt which went by ship.
Doug (post 287): The impact on Judaism and early Christianity was deep and profound
You are talking two different topics:
The latter is correct, the former is not.
To the Roman Empire the Judeans were an irritation -- a backwater far from the center of the Empire, of less importance than Caledonia because the Jews didn't go as brigands outside their neck of the woods
The reverse impact was there of course, but it would be like comparing the impacts of Guatemala on the US and US on Guatemala.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.