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The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Is God a Trinity? ^ | Various | Various

Posted on 04/15/2013 5:06:15 PM PDT by DouglasKC

The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine

Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Most people assume that everything that bears the label "Christian" must have originated with Jesus Christ and His early followers. But this is definitely not the case. All we have to do is look at the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles to see that this is clearly not true.

The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).

You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-19, 26; 4:1-3).

Barely two decades after Christ's death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that many believers were already "turning away . . . to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6). He wrote that he was forced to contend with "false apostles, deceitful workers" who were fraudulently "transforming themselves into apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). One of the major problems he had to deal with was "false brethren" (verse 26).

By late in the first century, as we see from 3 John 9-10, conditions had grown so dire that false ministers openly refused to receive representatives of the apostle John and were excommunicating true Christians from the Church!

Of this troubling period Edward Gibbon, the famed historian, wrote in his classic work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire of a "dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church" (1821, Vol. 2, p. 111). It wasn't long before true servants of God became a marginalized and scattered minority among those calling themselves Christian. A very different religion, now compromised with many concepts and practices rooted in ancient paganism (such mixing of religious beliefs being known as syncretism, common in the Roman Empire at the time), took hold and transformed the faith founded by Jesus Christ.

Historian Jesse Hurlbut says of this time of transformation: "We name the last generation of the first century, from 68 to 100 A.D., 'The Age of Shadows,' partly because the gloom of persecution was over the church, but more especially because of all the periods in the [church's] history, it is the one about which we know the least. We have no longer the clear light of the Book of Acts to guide us; and no author of that age has filled the blank in the history . . ."For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul" ( The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).

This "very different" church would grow in power and influence, and within a few short centuries would come to dominate even the mighty Roman Empire! By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching "another Jesus" and a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9).

Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict

This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. Was He man? Was He God? Was He God appearing as a man? Was He an illusion? Was He a mere man who became God? Was He created by God the Father, or did He exist eternally with the Father?

All of these ideas had their proponents. The unity of belief of the original Church was lost as new beliefs, many borrowed or adapted from pagan religions, replaced the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Let us be clear that when it comes to the intellectual and theological debates in those early centuries that led to the formulation of the Trinity, the true Church was largely absent from the scene, having been driven underground. (See the chapter "The Rise of a Counterfeit Christianity " in our free booklet The Church Jesus Built for an overview of this critical period.).

For this reason, in that stormy period we often see debates not between truth and error, but between one error and a different error— a fact seldom recognized by many modern scholars yet critical for our understanding.

A classic example of this was the dispute over the nature of Christ that led the Roman emperor Constantine the Great to convene the Council of Nicaea (in modern-day western Turkey) in A.D. 325.

Constantine, although held by many to be the first "Christian" Roman Emperor, was actually a sun-worshiper who was only baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest son and his wife murdered. He was also vehemently anti-Semitic, referring in one of his edicts to "the detestable Jewish crowd" and "the customs of these most wicked men"—customs that were in fact rooted in the Bible and practiced by Jesus and the apostles.

As emperor in a period of great tumult within the Roman Empire, Constantine was challenged with keeping the empire unified. He recognized the value of religion in uniting his empire. This was, in fact, one of his primary motivations in accepting and sanctioning the "Christian" religion (which, by this time, had drifted far from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles and was Christian in name only)

. But now Constantine faced a new challenge. Religion researcher Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God that "one of the first problems that had to be solved was the doctrine of God . . . a new danger arose from within which split Christians into bitterly warring camps" (1993, p. 106).

Debate over the nature of God at the Council of Nicaea

Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 as much for political reasons—for unity in the empire—as religious ones. The primary issue at that time came to be known as the Arian controversy.

"In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius, who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.

"Constantine himself of course neither knew nor cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (Arthur Cushman McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, 1954, Vol. 1, p. 258).

Arius, a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Christ, because He was the Son of God, must have had a beginning and therefore was a special creation of God. Further, if Jesus was the Son, the Father of necessity must be older. Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria. His view was an early form of Trinitarianism wherein the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one but at the same time distinct from each other.

The decision as to which view the church council would accept was to a large extent arbitrary. Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God: "When the bishops gathered at Nicaea on May 20, 325, to resolve the crisis, very few would have shared Athanasius's view of Christ. Most held a position midway between Athanasius and Arius" (p. 110).

As emperor, Constantine was in the unusual position of deciding church doctrine even though he was not really a Christian. (The following year is when he had both his wife and son murdered, as previously mentioned).

Historian Henry Chadwick attests, "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun" ( The Early Church, 1993, p. 122). As to the emperor's embrace of Christianity, Chadwick admits, "His conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear" (p. 125).

Chadwick does say that Constantine's deathbed baptism itself "implies no doubt about his Christian belief," it being common for rulers to put off baptism to avoid accountability for things like torture and executing criminals (p. 127). But this justification doesn't really help the case for the emperor's conversion being genuine.

Norbert Brox, a professor of church history, confirms that Constantine was never actually a converted Christian: "Constantine did not experience any conversion; there are no signs of a change of faith in him. He never said of himself that he had turned to another god . . . At the time when he turned to Christianity, for him this was Sol Invictus (the victorious sun god)" ( A Concise History of the Early Church, 1996, p. 48).

When it came to the Nicene Council, The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination" (1971 edition, Vol. 6, "Constantine," p. 386).

With the emperor's approval, the Council rejected the minority view of Arius and, having nothing definitive with which to replace it, approved the view of Athanasius—also a minority view. The church was left in the odd position of officially supporting, from that point forward, the decision made at Nicaea to endorse a belief held by only a minority of those attending.

The groundwork for official acceptance of the Trinity was now laid—but it took more than three centuries after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for this unbiblical teaching to emerge!

Nicene decision didn't end the debate

The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy. Karen Armstrong explains: "Athanasius managed to impose his theology on the delegates . . . with the emperor breathing down their necks . . .

"The show of agreement pleased Constantine, who had no understanding of the theological issues, but in fact there was no unanimity at Nicaea. After the council, the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Arius and his followers fought back and managed to regain imperial favor. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. It was very difficult to make his creed stick" (pp. 110-111).

The ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome" ( The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). Atrociously, while claiming to be Christian many believers fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God!

Of the following decades, Professor Harold Brown, cited earlier, writes: "During the middle decades of this century, from 340 to 380, the history of doctrine looks more like the history of court and church intrigues and social unrest . . . The central doctrines hammered out in this period often appear to have been put through by intrigue or mob violence rather than by the common consent of Christendom led by the Holy Spirit" (p. 119).

Debate shifts to the nature of the Holy Spirit

Disagreements soon centered around another issue, the nature of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, the statement issued at the Council of Nicaea said simply, "We believe in the Holy Spirit." This "seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought," writes Karen Armstrong. "People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more?" (p. 115).

Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier,writes, "In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius' view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.

These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all "trained in Greek philosophy" (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs (see "Greek Philosophy's Influence on the Trinity Doctrine," beginning on page 14).

In their view, as Karen Armstrong explains, "the Trinity only made sense as a mystical or spiritual experience . . . It was not a logical or intellectual formulation but an imaginative paradigm that confounded reason. Gregory of Nazianzus made this clear when he explained that contemplation of the Three in One induced a profound and overwhelming emotion that confounded thought and intellectual clarity.

"'No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Three than I am carried back into the One. When I think of any of the Three, I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me'" (p. 117). Little wonder that, as Armstrong concludes, "For many Western Christians . . . the Trinity is simply baffling" (ibid.).

Ongoing disputes lead to the Council of Constantinople

In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine's death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.

Historian Charles Freeman states: "Virtually nothing is known of the theological debates of the council of 381, but Gregory was certainly hoping to get some acceptance of his belief that the Spirit was consubstantial with the Father [meaning that the persons are of the same being, as substance in this context denotes individual quality].

"Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the 'Macedonians,' bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting 'the Divine Word' of the Trinity on his authority" ( A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).

Gregory soon became ill and had to withdraw from the council. Who would preside now? "So it was that one Nectarius, an elderly city senator who had been a popular prefect in the city as a result of his patronage of the games, but who was still not a baptized Christian, was selected . . . Nectarius appeared to know no theology, and he had to be initiated into the required faith before being baptized and consecrated" (Freeman, pp. 97-98).

Bizarrely, a man who up to this point wasn't a Christian was appointed to preside over a major church council tasked with determining what it would teach regarding the nature of God!

The Trinity becomes official doctrine

The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians "made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture" ( The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, "God," p. 568).

The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . ." The statement also affirmed belief "in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . ."

With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God.

Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council's decision "was to reduce the meanings of the word 'God' from a very large selection of alternatives to one only," such that "when Western man today says 'God' he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else" ( Studies in Christian Antiquity, 1985,pp. 243-244).

Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: "It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor's laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved" (p. 103).

Other beliefs about the nature of God banned

Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: "We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead" (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).

Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: "Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.

"They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" (reproduced in Documents of the Christian Church, Henry Bettenson, editor, 1967, p. 22).

Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly. Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error.

This unusual chain of events is why theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson would summarize the story in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith by noting that the adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of "a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . . In fact it was a process of trial and error (almost of hit and miss), in which the error was by no means all confined to the unorthodox . . . It would be foolish to represent the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as having been achieved by any other way" (1980, p. 172).

They then conclude: "This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, 'How divine is Jesus Christ?' . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one" (p. 175).

Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: "The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . .

"This failure of Christian theology . . . to produce logical justification of the cardinal point in its trinitarian doctrine is of the greatest possible significance. We are forced, even before turning to the question of the vindication of the doctrine by experience, to ask ourselves whether theology or philosophy has ever produced any reasons why its belief should be Trinitarian" ("The Evolution of the Doctrine of the Trinity," published in Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation, A.E.J. Rawlinson, editor, 1928, pp. 221-222). Why believe a teaching that isn't biblical?

This, in brief, is the amazing story of how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be introduced—and how those who refused to accept it came to be branded as heretics or unbelievers.

But should we really base our view of God on a doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible, that wasn't formalized until three centuries after the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, that was debated and argued for decades (not to mention for centuries since), that was imposed by religious councils presided over by novices or nonbelievers and that was "decided by the method of trial and error"?

Of course not. We should instead look to the Word of God—not to ideas of men—to see how our Creator reveals Himself!


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: god; jesus; origins; trinity
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To: MHGinTN

I’m speechless and that ain’t no small thing.


121 posted on 04/15/2013 11:01:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change

Why thank you!


122 posted on 04/15/2013 11:08:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Natural Law

To live and conduct business as a Jew in Jerusalem in Jesus’s day one could handle Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic. I don’t doubt that many of the Disciples could read and write, probably in more than one language. A tax collector would use Hebrew, Latin, and probably Aramaic andf Greek. Even a man with a fish business would use more than one language there.


123 posted on 04/15/2013 11:17:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Truth2012
Who needs all that pages of info? The idea came from the Word.

Over the years debating with the Sola Scriptura crowd, I have used these and other verses to demonstrate that you could just as easily interpret it to mean a plurality of gods ala the Greeks or Romans.. You needed the teaching authority of the Catholic Church through the Magesterium to settle the matter.

It is easy for us to see these things in hindsight, but you might want to go back and look at the history of the Trinity and the incarnation to see how our understanding of them came to be.

124 posted on 04/16/2013 2:34:06 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

?? They came to be because people, who have read the word, found out that there was God, then there was a whole bunch of people- and there Moses- and a pillar of fire and a cloud of smoke, then there was Jesus- who was at the foundation. Jesus told us that he came from the Father and was sending us the comforter.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Pretty simple. Just read the Bible. There is no other conclusion to reach.


125 posted on 04/16/2013 3:49:04 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: Truth2012
It is easy for us to see these things in hindsight, but you might want to go back and look at the history of the Trinity and the incarnation to see how our understanding of them came to be.
126 posted on 04/16/2013 4:44:57 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

:) Ok..BUT- I don’t understand what you mean by “hindsight”. Do people not comprehend the Bible, WHILE they are reading it???

Totally confusing to me that people really do not seem to understand the Bible.

It is just a storybook- a love letter- why is it so hard for people to read it and understand it?


127 posted on 04/16/2013 4:58:17 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: Cronos; Diego1618
4. Jesus and the Father were the same, so Jesus was not man, so His sacrifice was not real as this was a spirit on the cross, a phantom (latter part is Moslem, former part is Unitarian or Oneness Pentecostal or UCG)

I think you made a mistake here friend if "UCG" is United Church of God.

It's not the teaching of the bible or UCG that Jesus and the father are the same...and none of the rest of that statement is what UCG believes either. Can you please clarify?

Thanks!

128 posted on 04/16/2013 5:15:01 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Truth2012
Ok..BUT- I don’t understand what you mean by “hindsight”. Do people not comprehend the Bible, WHILE they are reading it???

Totally confusing to me that people really do not seem to understand the Bible.

It is just a storybook- a love letter- why is it so hard for people to read it and understand it?

Well to begin with The Jewish people had all the prophecies of the OT and did not recognize the Messiah when he walked among them. The Jewish people lived every aspect of the law. They memorized the books and didn't recognize him.

Now flash forward 300 years to the council of Nicea. there are burning questions that have not been settled. 1) Is Christ divine?

2) Was He half human half divine, or fully human and fully divine at the same time?

As I said looking at it after it has been settled we can see it but back then it was not.

Also keep in mind the canon of the NT was not ordered until 393 and 397 at the councils of Hippo and Carthage.

129 posted on 04/16/2013 5:18:06 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; editor-surveyor
The UCG believes in more than one God and openly argues for it. I thought you said you weren’t UCG?

Don't feel bad editor-surveyor.....Greetings_Puny_Human believes in worshipping the devil!

130 posted on 04/16/2013 5:18:56 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; narses; P-Marlowe
If one is willing to throw out the Bible, then it is possible to get rid of the Trinity.

Otherwise, it is there for all to see. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

131 posted on 04/16/2013 5:22:13 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: verga; Truth2012
t is easy for us to see these things in hindsight, but you might want to go back and look at the history of the Trinity and the incarnation to see how our understanding of them came to be.

Absolutely true my friend. We would not have an understanding of the trinity today if not for the Catholic church!

132 posted on 04/16/2013 5:22:36 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

:) The Catholic church has done nothing for me personally, I read the Bible. I understand what I am reading as the word of God. The Jewish has faith has done far more for me, in understanding and teaching...

I just don’t understand why others don’t understand what they are reading.


133 posted on 04/16/2013 5:26:19 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: verga

I think you might want to go back and read Exodus. Moses and the burning bush is the splashiest story about the Holy Spirit- but even Abraham knew the saving powers of following the Holy Spirit. In fact, Mary and Joesph recognized God and the Holy Spirit. Anna knew the Messiah... The people who followed and obeyed in the desert... Joshua... Isaiah.. The did not need any Catholics to tell them what to do.. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel.. There were people walking in obedience to God’s voice- (the Spirit of the law- the Holy Spirit) for many, many years- before the Catholics showed up.

Just sayin’


134 posted on 04/16/2013 5:33:41 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: kosciusko51; Arthur McGowan
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

All Christians believe this. As a Roman Catholic Christian (I despise all the labels) I believe this as all Roman Catholics do. The question to ask yourself is: Did Paul believe that all the letters that he wrote were sacred scripture? Did Paul read Revelation? Did he approve? The question about several of the "Catholic" epistles even being scripture (Luther had a problem with them) is another argument that has perplexed the 2 Timothy 3:16 quote.

One absolutely has to refer to Church authority when it comes to what is scripture and what is not. And that is what Arthur was stating.

Deacon Francis

135 posted on 04/16/2013 5:38:00 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: Truth2012

I have done all i can. I spoke the truth to you in love and compassion. You havee chosen to reject it, that is your choice.


136 posted on 04/16/2013 5:52:18 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: xzins
If one is willing to throw out the Bible, then it is possible to get rid of the Trinity.

That's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Matthew 3: 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

There sure is a father and a son. And the fact that their spirit is working on earth and in believers is undisputable. But there is no scriptural evidence that indicates that the holy spirit is a separate "person" in the Godhead in heaven!

137 posted on 04/16/2013 6:04:44 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: verga; Truth2012
Well to begin with The Jewish people had all the prophecies of the OT and did not recognize the Messiah when he walked among them. The Jewish people lived every aspect of the law. They memorized the books and didn't recognize him.

Well to be fair the problem with the Jews was that their tradition had put scripture in second place. Their learned interpretations and opinions of scripture were in error and they had lost their way because of tradition.

But once Christ began to teach them that their tradition was screwing things up, many began to REALLY read the scriptures without the prism of incorrect tradition screwing things up.

The wool fell off from their eyes.

138 posted on 04/16/2013 6:10:23 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: ThomasMore

I was referring to the use of this verse by sola scriptura advocates. It would support their position if it said that ONLY Scripture contains the deposit of faith.

Scott Hahn was an adult, a student preparing for the ministry, when he first noticed that the verse said “ALL” rather than “ONLY.”


139 posted on 04/16/2013 6:14:34 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: DouglasKC

Oh for sure.. the lessons to be learned is how the Jews, save small groups of people and small tribes, did not obey the voice of God, and when Jesus came in flesh, he told us to look at the Spirit of the Law, not the letter of the law. That is why he was making his stand as a Rabbi from the House of Hillel and walking out the gospel, his ministry and then dying a powerful death- making the story complete. BUT it started at the beginning and then with the Jews- and ended with Jesus. It is a full and complete story. We can’t start in the middle. We have to read the beginning to see where they made their error and WHO made the error. There were always small groups of people who obey the commandment to follow the voice of God. When the word became flesh- and gave sound and blood to the word- we have a good map of what to do.

There is a reason why we see how hard it was for them to follow the voice, before the word became flesh. It is for our benefit to contemplate that very thing. :)

God loves us- so he imparts these things to us.


140 posted on 04/16/2013 6:22:08 AM PDT by Truth2012
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