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To: JCBreckenridge; Boogieman; Persevero
The fact that every Published Vulgate from 405 onwards had this list of books? Or did that just happen at random?

Why you continue to post polemics that have been refuted ? however, there were various and variant copies of the Vulgate, while containing is not necessarily the same as being canonical.

“At the end of the fourth century Pope Damasus commissioned Jerome, the most learned biblical scholar of his day, to prepare a standard Latin version of the Scriptures (the Latin Vulgate). In the Old Testament Jerome followed the Hebrew canon and by means of prefaces called the reader's attention to the separate category of the apocryphal books. Subsequent copyists of the Latin Bible, however, were not always careful to transmit Jerome's prefaces, and during the medieval period the Western Church generally regarded these books as part of the holy Scriptures.” — Introductory material to the appendix of the Vulgata Clementina , text in Latin

The 8th cent. Vulgate Codex Amiatinus contains the "Prologus Galeatus" of Jerome to the Books of the Kings and other prefaces (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04081a.htm; http://www.bible-researcher.com/jerome.html), which reminds us of the distinction between Scripture and the apocryphal books

Vulgate manuscripts included prologues that clearly identified certain books of the Vulgate Old Testament as apocryphal or non-canonical (Prologues of Saint Jerome , Latin text )

"...other Vulgate manuscripts included prologues that clearly identified certain books of the Vulgate Old Testament as apocryphal or non-canonical" - http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bible/prologi.shtml

The Vulgate is understood to be a compound text that is not entirely the work of Jerome, (Grammar of the Vulgate, W.E. Plater and H.J. White, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1926)

One curious feature of many manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate is the inclusion of the apocryphal Epistola ad Laodicenses. - http://www.bible-researcher.com/laodiceans.html

In several ancient Latin manuscripts the spurious Epistle to the Laodiceans is found among the canonical letters, and, in a few instances, the apocryphal III Corinthians. - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

Moreover, while Trent did establish the Vulgate as the official Bible for that time, it did not specify which edition, nor elevate it above the original language manuscripts (though some disagree). The lack of uniformity among Vulgate editions and problems with that translation resulted in the embarrassing Sistine Vulgate . (Nor is the Douay-Challoner version a pure translation of the Vulgate.)

Correction of its many errors resulted in the first edition of the Clementine Vulgate (official version till 1979) which was presented as a Sixtine edition (with a preface in which Bellarmine charitably attributed the problem of the previous version to being that of copyist errors, rather than being the fault of Sixtus). In 1592, Pope Clement VIII published this revised edition of the Vulgate, referred to as the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate. He moved three books, 3 and 4 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses (commonly found in medieval MSS of the Vulgate, immediately after 2Chronicles, and not found in the canon of the Council of Trent) from the Old Testament into an appendix "lest they utterly perish" (ne prorsus interirent). — (http://sacredbible.org/vulgate1861/scans/817-Apocrypha.jpg)

Also of interest,

In the spring of 1907 the public press announced that Pius X had determined to begin preparations for a critical revision of the Latin Bible... In spite of the care which during forty years had been bestowed upon the text of the present authentic edition issued by Clement VIII, in 1592, it had been recognized from the first that the text would have to be revised some day, and that in some ways this Clementine revision was inferior to the Sixtine version of 1590, which it had hastily superseded. — Catholic Encyclopedia>Revision of Vulgate; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15515b.htm

There is also no known 1st century LXX manuscripts with the apocrypha, and what we do have varies much and evidences to be of Christian compilation.

226 posted on 04/05/2013 7:33:00 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Again, you continue to confirm rather than refute my position.

You say the Jews hold your position. However are there any LXX manuscripts that confirm the booklist that you use? No. Not a single one.

The oldest manuscript copies of the LXX, again are Codex Vaticanus (which has them), and Sinaiticus (which also has them). They also have varient NT canons, prior to standardization.

We don’t have a complete LXX manuscript older than Vaticanus. All the extant evidence confirms that these books are canonical.


228 posted on 04/05/2013 9:38:15 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: daniel1212

There are no first century LXX Manuscripts, period.

Arguing “there are none that are x”, implies that there exists some that do have x, when this is just not so.

The extant evidence we do possess, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, confirms that the apocrypha was considered to be canonical.


230 posted on 04/05/2013 9:43:08 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: daniel1212
On the same point of interest, I found this while doing some reading last night:

    "Julius Africanus, Christian scholar and Roman librarian, wrote a devastating letter to Origen about the story of Susanna and the elders which appears at the outset of the Greek--but not the Hebrew--text of the Book of Daniel. He thought it inauthentic for several reasons: the Jews it portrayed seemed to enjoy more freedom than was consistent with the real conditions of the Babylonian captivity, and the Daniel of the story, unlike the real prophet Daniel, prophesied in direct speech instead of by angelically inspired visions. The story as a whole, he acutely remarked, was too silly to be a Greek mime. But his chief argument was as simple as it was definitive. The story contains two crucial, elaborate puns--in Greek. Therefore it could not be a straight translation from the Hebrew, in which the puns would have been meaningless." (http://christianthinktank.com/pseudox.html

300 posted on 04/05/2013 6:45:58 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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