Posted on 03/29/2013 1:24:39 PM PDT by marshmallow
A viewing of the The Shroud of Turin, thought by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, will reportedly be televised Saturday on Italian State TV in what is said to be former Pope Benedict XVI's parting gift to the Catholic Church.
The televised viewing of the shroud on Holy Saturday will be the first in 40 years, according to a report in the Guardian newspaper.
The centuries-old linen cloth - one of the world's most famous relics - contains a faint impression of the front and back of a human body, along with blood, dirt and water stains from age. Many Roman Catholics believe the impressions were left by the body of Jesus after his crucifixion.
"There was no portrait made of Jesus so, really, the shroud still remains the best single thing that we have," said Russ Breault, president of the Shroud of Turin Education Project Inc., an organization "dedicated to raising awareness and understanding" of the shroud, according to its website.
The shroud's authenticity, however, has long been a subject of deep debate.
Skeptics believe the 14-foot cloth was faked during medieval times. Scientists have used various methods, including carbon dating, to test the authenticity of the fabric, and some results have supported the belief that the cloth is a medieval forgery. But there might be new evidence to support the view that the shroud is real.
Scientists at the University of Padua in Northern Italy have conducted experiments that show the shroud dates back to around the time of Christ's life, according to an article in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.
(Excerpt) Read more at gma.yahoo.com ...
ncl=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/28/turin-shroud-tv-pope-francis&hl=en&geo=us
He also noted that he's excited over the positive reception The Shroud is receiving this time around - even from the press -
he writes: "I am always thrilled to see positive news about the Shroud in the popular media, rather than the negative, skeptical attacks that happen so frequently, and particularly at this time of year. Yet the past few days have been filled with positive stories! "
I meant to add: "The 90-minute broadcast will be shown on Rai, the Italian state channel, (there are 3 Rai channels - Ital's channels can be accessed online with TVPC - scroll down for Italy - and then listings. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't)
Keep in mind that Italy is 5 hours ahead of us - so it's the middle of the night there now.
I watch more foreign news on TVPC from other countris - much more news on what's really going on here!
I'm currently watching one of the BBC channels -
http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=10381
There are several features on the Shroud that can be seen on depictions of Jesus from around 500 A.D. onwards. So, it may actually be that the Shroud influenced the later artists.
Has anyone mentioned that Pope Francis is doing an INTRO to the TV event ~ I heard.
By Sunday, Italy will be 6 (SIX) hours ahead of ET.
I think I heard it will be on UTube - since the widest possible availability is desired.
Has anyone mentioned the study that showed coins on the eyes of the shroud person - a custom back then !
Any mention of seventy five pounds of burial spices? see John’s Gospel.
Not well said at all, at least with respect to the purpose of the post which was to cast doubt on the genuineness of the Shroud. See post 33.
The denial on this thread by the skeptics is as mind boggling as the Shroud itself. The Shroud is either a fake;, the image of Christ; or the image of someone else. There is no other option. The scientific evidence collected to date indicates beyond a reasonable doubt that it is not a fake. Now if someone wants to continue calling it a fake, or implying it is a fake, then they need to deal with the evidence by either debunking it or coming up with a plausible alternative for it, and not simply put their head in the sand and ignore it. .
So the Shroud either shows the image of Christ or the image of someone else who was crucified in exactly the same way at about the same time and place, and either resurrected as Christ did, or put the image on the cloth in some other way. So in reality, contrary to your statement that there is no conceivable way to show that the Shroud is the burial cloth of Christ, it is actually inconceivable that it is NOT the burial Shroud of Christ.
Why is it that so many know so much without taking the time to read the information or even watch the video in post 8. As God said in the Book of Job, “Who is this who questions me without knowledge?”
Of course they he does. That's because those artists copied from what they could see on the shroud. It was displayed for all to see. There is usually the gap in his beard that is seen in the Shroud. There is the whisp of hair in the middle of his forehead as seen in the Shroud. There are many little details that the artists picked up from the cloth. So which came first, the chicken or the egg?
The Israelites showed extraordinary reverence for the Ark of the Covenant. Was this idol-worship?
Elisha was eager to possess Elijah's cloak. Was this idol-worship?
In Acts 19:11-12, people were touching cloths and handkerchiefs to St. Paul, so that they might be applied to the sick for their healing. Was this idol-worship?
And if people were eager to have cloths which had touched the Prophet Elijah or the Apostle Paul, wouldn't we be even more interested in the burial cloth wrapped around the body and marked with the blood of our blessed Lord? If such indeed it is, it's not because we care about cloth, but because we care for the crucified Savior.
A widower kissing a photo of his departed wife is showing love for the wife, not a confused belief that the image actually *is* the wife or that he is married to the photo. In a similar way, the respect shown for this burial shroud shows respect for the One whose body imprinted the shroud.
Moreover, idols are representations of false gods. Jesus Christ is not a false god. We are convinced that He is actually the true God.
While some people don't believe that, I think most (normal) people understand the distinction between a love for some trace of a loved one's mortal remains, and idolatry.
Remember Jezebel's priests of Baal, that cut themselves to try and get their god's attention? Wounding one’s self to make a ‘shroud’ is not very far fetched. Especially if the result could get one’s self a nice payday/news worthy attention. Imagine: Jerusalem 100A.D., town crier shouting “Man looking in cave finds blood stained cloth with resemblence of a man that had been crucified!”.
Through the centuries, there have been (mentally unsound) people that have willingly been crucified, to be like Jesus Christ. How many were wrapped in a big cloth to further duplicate the event?
Is it also possible that some sicko disabled some poor soul, then wounded him in the same locations as described by the Christ's crucifiction, then rolled him up in the cloth?
Scammers have been around a long time, even before Rebekah briefly ‘transformed’ Jacob into Esau.
One thing is certain, the shroud has been a money maker. We shouldn't declare it a fraud, for fear of possibly offending those that have profited from it. (think the ‘silversmiths of Diana’)
God chose the foolishness of preaching to save the lost. If a piece of blood stained cloth pricks the heart of a soul, creating a desire to hear the word of God, then that's a positive.
The two pieces; linen wrapped around the body, and the cloth that was wrapped around the head, would seem to make the whole matter more complex. Where is the cloth that was wrapped around his head? Don't tell me that your dog ate it. If the entire body was wrapped with one big cloth, then why was the separate cloth for the head even needed? was it wrapped around the head after the big cloth was wrapped over the body? If so, why?
I'm trying to wrap my head around all this so-called expert/scientific analysis, but will believe the Lord regardless.
disclaimer: I am not a wrapper.
**Any mention of seventy five pounds of burial spices? see John’s Gospel.**
There you go again, using the scriptures to make a point. Shame on you. lol
Is it also possible that some sicko disabled some poor soul, then wounded him in the same locations as described by the Christ's crucifiction, then rolled him up in the cloth?
Scammers have been around a long time, even before Rebekah briefly ‘transformed’ Jacob into Esau.
One thing is certain, the shroud has been a money maker. We shouldn't declare it a fraud, for fear of possibly offending those that have profited from it. (think the ‘silversmiths of Diana’)
More blind denial without evaluating the evidence. I wish at least one skeptic would address the scientific evidence before speculating the Shroud might be fake, or offer that it should not be declared a fake because it is a moneymaker, thereby implying that there is good evidence it is fake but that evidence is being covered up for monetary reasons.
None of the scenarios you propose would imprint an image of a man on the cloth, let alone the irradiated image found on the Shroud. The scenarios you propose would just show the blood stains. Plus they would have needed microscopic pollen from Jerusalem and not only understood the need for it in order to fool scientists several hundred years in the future, but actually gone out and gotten it and put it on the Shroud. Then there is the issue of matching the blood stains on the suderium
As far as it being a moneymaker, that has no bearing at all on its legitimacy. As far as the 75 pounds of spice, this idea implies that there should be traces of the spice on the cloth. I don't know if that has even been looked at but if there is none, and someone wants to propose that is an indicator that it is not the image of Christ on the Shroud, then we need to ponder who's image it is? It would have to the image of someone crucified exactly like Christ, about the same time and place, who somehow irradiated his image onto the cloth.
If that scenario is true, how does that affect Christianity?
The Shroud has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to not be a fake, therefore it is either the image of Christ or someone else. The chance of it being someone else is extremely small.
“So, my statement of fact (the fact is, I don’t believe the Shroud is what it is claimed to be) makes me a bad person, or someone to slur?
I’m just of a different opinion”
Spoken like a true relativist even down to making oneself into the victim.
What is it that bothers the relativists so much about the Holy Shroud?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3002147/posts
“Certainly there were artists in the days of Jesus ... no one thought to draw a sketch?”
I asked a pastor that once - and why there there are no physical descriptions of Him (or anyone) in the Bible. I forget the reason, but the Jews, or anyone from the time-period perhaps, were not into describing people. There was an interesting reason - but I forget what it was.
See post 35, about the cloth of Suderium or whatever it is called. Has blood in the same patterns as the shroud. They have also done analysis of the blood (both rare type AB - although I have read where ALL old blood gets typed as AB, so...)
But physicians have also done studies on where the blood pooled, etc. and describe that it makes sense with regard to contracting muscles, etc. after death. So not just some scammer cutting himself and splattering blood all over.
Oh - the cloth head wrap. In the Bible it does talk about the two seperate piles of cloth (interesting detail in itself). I’m not sure if they are postive, or conjecture, but I have heard that the head cloth was wrapped around the head first - below the jaw and over the crown of the head, to keep the mouth closed. And then they placed the body on top of the long shroud and then draped the remainder of the shroud over the body (with the “fold” at the top of the head).
My #6
You say:
**More blind denial without evaluating the evidence.**
Then admit:**As far as the 75 pounds of spice, this idea implies that there should be traces of the spice on the cloth. I don’t know if that has even been looked at but if there is none,...**
That would seem to be an important factor to examine. What kind of chemical reactions do these spices have on the possibly sunburned skin of a body? I mean, they were used to cause some sort of preservation, if only very short term.
Real or not, hearing the Word of God and keeping it is the measure of faith that will save the soul. I’m sure there are many that believe that the shroud is genuine, yet do not keep the Word (people like Pelosi, Kerry, Cuomo, etc. come to mind). They eat the wafer, and think that they are just fine. A close friend (recently deceased) had that attitude about his faith.
Many need an object/icon to assure themselves of the existance of God. But the Lord’s proof of existance to the believer is the indwelling Spirit of God. If there are some unbelievers that, because of the debate over the shroud, hear/investigate the Word, and are saved, then that’s obviously a good thing.
I have read that blood type AB is the common type in Jesus’ area - of Jews.
Also whenever any Sacred Blood from Eucharistic Miracles is tested, it also is AB.
And the Sudarium at Ovieto also tested AB.
BOOK:
SACRED BLOOD, SACRED IMAGE The Sudarium of Oviedo.
New evidence for the authenticity of The Shroud of Turin. by Janice Bennett. 2001 Lots of nice pics !
Along with a pic of each, it says: A clotted flow of blood appears on the right side of both linens, extending the length of the beard. It is post-mortem blood on both cloths, with a very similar morphology, measured at 1,310 sq mm on the Shroud and 1,980 sq mm on the Sudarium.
Read #6.
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