Posted on 03/26/2013 8:14:48 PM PDT by NYer
“Name one person who needed/needs the Shroud to confirm his/her faith.” - Steve86
To quote Jesus, “It is not the healthy who need a physician.”
If it makes anyone take a second look at the TRUTH and ETERNAL LIFE, I’m thinking it’s good thing.
We enjoyed Turin very much - had come in from Val d’Aosta towards Chamonix, where there are the most amazing Roman roads, bridges, ruins.
One thing I forgot about was shortly after we moved the car and were leaving the bus the car owner showed up and got in and drove away. He didn’t even realize that it had been moved. LoL!
Yes, I agree; that must be part of God’s plan.
Still, are there really that many proto-Christians who go through life sitting on the fence until one day they discover a confirming relic then it’s ALL IN? That’s what I am skeptical about. Or that their faith would weaken and die if any particular relic turned out to be inauthentic.
I hear you. That’s where it’s the church’s duty to provide them a solid theology that addresses more than “signs and wonders”. Jesus said the only sign we would have is the sign of Jonah. That’s more important (at least to me) than a specific object or relic. I really just wanted to make the point that God works though means, and if one of those means is the shroud, then so much the better. It’s then the church’s job to teach and enrich the new believer.
” Lovely, except the carbon dating dated the shroud to medieval times. Until someone redates the shroud using carbon dating and overturns the previous results, the matter is closed, as far as I’m concerned. “
As I remember the facts re the Shroud: In the Middle Ages there was a bad fire where the Shroud was kept and parts of it were burned. Nuns used PATCHES, ie, of other material, to replace the missing parts. These were at the corners.
The team that took parts to carbon date, took from these patches - sure, the corners. I have read they had ulterior motives for doing that. Poeple who believed, never did believe that carbon dating.
Some people consider the total unreal RESURRECTION of a dead body - all by itself - WHO was GOD - caused some supernatural burst of something that caused the ‘image’ on it. Since, of course, there is no human explanation for what it can be seen to be.
Similar to the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico. Another Spiritual Wonder.
See my post 37 about a possible theory on suspending in midair.
Yes, and it is almost as if God wanted a nice color portrait of His Mother so He decided to paint it Himself.
Research has been done on the tilma, on the eyes especially, and they have found that there is an image in the pupils which show the reflection of who was present when the image was made, as if showing the witnesses who were present.
If I remember correctly, the reflection shows Juan Diego and the bishop and his assistants. Kinda neat.
Bump.
I know all that. However, the fact remains that until someone redoes the carbon dating, the medieval date still stands and is irrefutable. I think the Shroud should be dated again with a sample taken from an area which is not patched.
MeaNGal meet MeaNDude!
Hans Scholl, the University of Munich medical student who (with his sister Sophie) led the White Rose Resistance to Hitler. Was an agnostic, young, undecided about things, interested in science, went to see when the Shroud was displayed (I can’t remember when or where, sometime in the late 30’s I’m guessing) and it played a part in his Christian conversion. The growing, then electrifying realization: Physical evidence. This is actually true.
Hans Scholl, the University of Munich medical student who (with his sister Sophie) led the White Rose Resistance to Hitler. Was an agnostic, young, undecided about things, interested in science, went to see when the Shroud was displayed (I can’t remember when or where, sometime in the late 30’s I’m guessing) and it played a part in his Christian conversion. The growing, then electrifying realization: Physical evidence. This is actually true.
My comment was misunderstood. I certainly didn’t mean to imply the Shroud could not or should play a part in any conversion. Quite joyously, it can and does. It did with at least one poster in the thread already.
What my comment was reacting to was an assertion from a non-Catholic poster that a “piece of cloth” was not needed to confirm her faith, with the implication that Catholics or Shroud followers in general are dependent on the Shroud or similar relics to confirm their faith (at least the poster displayed a general interest in the Shroud as part of Christian religious history).
I would submit that Mr./Dr. Scholl’s faith would stay strong even if the Shroud were later proved to be a hoax or of non-supernatural origin (we know almost conclusively now that the Shroud is genuine and it is not likely to be validly discredited). Scholl’s faith, yours, mine, just about everyone’s would continue strong even without confirmation from the Shroud. That’s all I was saying. Catholics don’t in general “need” it, but it’s wonderful that it’s there!
Anyone seen any network information for the live broadcast yet?
Shroud of Turin ping.
Freepmail me to be added or removed to or from the Shroud ping list
Yes, you are right. One's whole religious conviction does not rest on one artifact like the Shroud. And it is not a dogma of the Church that this is indubitably authentic; but only that it is worthy of respect because it is --- by whatever provenance --- something which reminds us strongly of Our Lord's passion and death.
Just as many a person over the centuries has made a crown of thorns --- not "THE" cron of thorns --- but something to call to mind Him who wore it.
So, there's other sorts of evidence that there's something beyond the here and now and we show it to them.
But if you think that your method can work with others, go to it man.(wink!)
No problem, I had a terrible two days for misconstrued comments — obviously my deficiency, not yours — even on the pope thread where I proffered that Francis superficially reminded me of an ascetic (who aren’t all disengaged from the world). Oh my goodness, that was a mistake.
Plenty of people out there with sufficient knowledge to understand that a first century photographic negative is pretty rare. Some others who think it might be a medieval photographic negative still think about it.
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