Posted on 03/22/2013 10:51:40 AM PDT by DouglasKC
We'll never agree on this. I believe that the ultimate authority is the word of God. People are too weak and imperfect to faithfully carry through time the will of God without the authority of the written word being preeminent..
Says who?
they had no authority to change “one jot or one tittle” of Torah.
What is your take on Acts 15?
Yeshua was already in the tomb on what you call holy thursday. he was also in that tomb on friday, and he never said to worship Dagon while he was in there.
Except for the people who wrote, copied, preserved and canonized the Scriptures, right?
So you say no to your own words that you quote, and then you present a statement that something that you didn’t quote is provably false but don’t supply the proof?
Looking at Leviticus 23 you can see there's generally three components: When to observe the days, to assemble on those days, and the sacrifices or offerings to be given.
As mentioned, Hebrews makes it very clear that Christ is our sacrifice under the new covenant. No other sacrifices are needed. However there is nothing in hebrews that suggests that these days are no longer to be observed or that we shouldn't assemble on those days as believers under the new covenant.
Thanks for clarifying your viewpoint.
The original scriptures are the only ones that were uncorrupted. All copies are prone to human error and influence but God has used many channels over the centuries to preserve scripture despite man's intervention. That can be seen when comparing for example copies of the dead sea scrolls book copies with modern day copies.
As far as the word "canon" scripture shows that many of the writings of what became the new testament were already circulating among the churches. By the time the traditional church got around to Canonization it was for the most part a settled issue. A stamp of approval so to speak.
That was before the Daylight Savings Time, and the modern Gregorian calendar, that’s why!
I do too. Let's read it together: "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." [1 Tim. 15-16]
Interesting. The Bible points to the Church as the pillar and bullwark of the truth. The Word of God is not a book. He is a man, Jesus Christ. He did not command that the Apostles write down a book for humanity to memorize. He commanded them to administer and build His Church. Although the Bible is without error and profitable to make one wise, it is not self-illuminating (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:15-16). There is nothing in Catholic Tradition which contradicts Scripture. There is much which illuminates It.
People are too weak and imperfect to faithfully carry through time the will of God without the authority of the written word being preeminent..
History records the opposite. People are too weak and imperfect to faithfully understand Scripture together without a teaching authority to explain it. We have an unbroken succession of our teachers back to the Apostles themselves. Teaching has built on but not contradicted the Bible nor the Deposit of Faith. We are One, Holy and Apostolic. On the Protestant side, there is division and discord as each person's private interpretation brings new churches and a fractalization of the faith. This is not the unity Christ prayed for us.
>> “I would have to disagree only because Christ certainly knew when Passover was.” <<
.
OK, did he die on passover, or a whole day before?
How could he die at passover, and still have a nice supper with his friends right after? you’re not thinking on this before you write.
His supper was obviously before his arrest, right? and trial, right? and torture, right? and carrying his cross to Golgotha? and by now the sun is setting again, and the passover lambs are getting close to being slaughtered for the passover, and he has to be crucified before the lambs are slaughtered, so that when the soldier’s sword pierces his side his blood flows at the same time as the lamb...
Did he have a time machine too?
You're welcome. Thanks for your courtesy.
Even you should know that it was lambs that were sacrificed.
The goat was sent loose into the wilderness with the sins.
“Scape Goat.”
So God preserved the original writers from erring?
If so, it is possible for men, by the grace of God, to act without error.
Certainly then, it is logically possible for Christ's Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," to teach without error.
In fact, it's impossible to imagine how "the pillar and foundation of truth" could never teach a certain truth.
As far as the word "canon" scripture shows that many of the writings of what became the new testament were already circulating among the churches. By the time the traditional church got around to Canonization it was for the most part a settled issue. A stamp of approval so to speak.
That's generally true, but several books were doubted for centuries, even by great saints, like St. Jerome, and also by Luther.
But at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation, around 70-100 A.D., the canon of the New Testament was far from a consensus. Other apocryphal books were circulated in the first few centuries of Church history.
And the canon of the Old Testament is still contested by Catholics, Protestants, and the Orthodox.
>> “We do not put aside the Commandments of God. The Tradition we follow has a capital “T”. What is this Tradition? It is the instruction given by Christ after His Resurrection and prior to His Ascension” <<
The doctrine that Yeshua broke Torah and offered an oral tradition is a lie from the deepest pit of hell.
All that Yeshua taught was Torah, and all that there will be until all things are accomplished is Torah.
If Yeshua taught anything that was not Torah, we have no savior, for he would have sinned and been an imperfect sacrifice.
Let's define our terms... If you mean "breaking with Torah" as meaning contradiction, we agree with each other.
However, your assertion that God never gave oral tradition is laughable! Until Moses codified the Pentateuch, oral tradition was all we had. We may have had letters of the Apostles to read from early in the Church but the letters themselves speak of the oral traditions they brought (1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15).
The Apostles weren't Gideons with Bibles for every hotel. They were authorities unto themselves ordained by Christ to teach and to preach.
And yet Revelation is the last book of the Bible. Genesis starts with "in the beginning" and we end with this and you say it is coincidence? God works in mysterious ways.
The feasts of YHVH were written from the beginning. Enoch, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob obviously had written instruction that they followed. Those instructions got lost during the years of captivity in Egypt.
YHVH’s people never were told to follow oral traditions.
Moses encounter with YHVH on the mountain was totally necessary because only written law can be followed.
You apparently never read the epistles of Enoch?
They provide understanding of important facts which prevent the kind of twisted insanity we see today in the “church.”
Female Angels? Satan loves them!
>> “We may have had letters of the Apostles to read from early in the Church but the letters themselves speak of the oral traditions they brought” <<
No, they do use the term “traditions,” but definitely not oral. All that was taught was put into writing, and in most cases likely thousands of times.
We can know that the things we read in the gospels are accurate because the gospels are similar but not exactly the same chronologically, because each witness remembered the events but didn’t recall them the same in minute detail, making them corroberating and honest witnesses.
The apostles were well schooled Jewish boys that knew Torah like the back of their hands, and therein lies their authority, since all that Yeshua ever taught them was that he was fulfilling this or that passage of Torah.
All that they needed to add to that was the confidence in their spiritual gifts. That was their authority.
He couldn't. Which is why he observed the Passover meal at the start of the 14th...just after sunset.
His supper was obviously before his arrest, right? and trial, right? and torture, right? and carrying his cross to Golgotha? and by now the sun is setting again, and the passover lambs are getting close to being slaughtered for the passover, and he has to be crucified before the lambs are slaughtered, so that when the soldier’s sword pierces his side his blood flows at the same time as the lamb..
And he was killed during the daylight hours of the 14th...as the lambs were being slaughtered.
Why do you think that he had to observe the Passover meal after Passover was done?
Or I guess a more basic question is it your understanding that Passover begins on at sunset when 14 Nisan starts?
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