I am saying that the pronouncement of the Council were in response to the teachings of the Reformers and a condemnation of them. Trent was a response to an existential threat. It took Rome more than a decade to wake up to what was going on, that The Empire was in schism. Rome had been distracted by their quarrel with the Emperor which led to the sack of Rome by his troops, with the Turkish threat, with the demands of Henry VIII and Francis etc. Olkiticsa in short. Then there started a move to negotiate with the Lutheran princes, and moves for new council. When it finally happened, it was without the Reformers, that is to say, the Lutherans etc. The Catholics reformers set the agenda, so Trent adopted the reform agenda of the Catholic reformers. Less a “counter-Reformation,”than an :alternative-reformation. The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind.
RE: I am saying that the pronouncement of the Council were in response to the teachings of the Reformers and a condemnation of them.
I don’t think you answered my question. If Trent’s pronouncement were a condemnation of the Reformer’s teachings (you just said it above), then surely the same condemnation applies to their present followers who teach similar things. But then, Vatican II calls them “United with Christ”, so which is it?
So, which is being condemned and why the condemnation? Is it because of the historical situation at that time which no longer exists today, or is it because of the TEACHINGS THEMSELVES?
My reading of Trent and Vatican I tells me that it is the TEACHINGS that are condemned. Which is, EVEN IF there is no existential threat like an Empire in schism today, the condemnation of the TEACHING still remains.
But you seem to be saying no... ( or maybe I read you wrongly).
RE: The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind.
OK, let’s say that today’s reformers do not use the heated rhetoric of the 16th century, are their beliefs ( e.g. Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, non-recognition of the Pope as Primate ) still under Trent’s condemnation or not? And note I focus on the word — BELIEF, not the rhetoric of the 16th century, or the existential threat to the Empire.
RE: The rivalry with today’s evangelicals, to the extent that they do not use the rhetoric of the Protestant Reformers, is of a different kind <-— Note the last two words.
What is this “different kind” you are referring to? Could you please clarify? How is the belief of Reformed Christians today any different from the beliefs of the Protestant Reformers?
Also, why don’t you clarify each of the points I raised in Post #40 above.
All you’ve done in response is to re-iterate what you said before, which does NOTHING to clarify the seeming contradiction between Vatican I and II.