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To: stonehouse01; NYer
NYer’s point was even a “secular” oral tradition can be accurate. The epic Greek poems that had been passed down orally proved to be correct. Three thousand years ago these epic poems were passed down through the bards. Troy exists confirmed by recent archeology. The written word of God was followed by incompete attempts to write about it.

Sure, they can be, but when we are talking about the revealed word of God and not just how great, great granny met great, great grandpa, isn't written a better and more sure conduit for truth? Paul and Peter both wrote letters to the churches and they were fully expecting their instructions to be obeyed, retained and passed down. In fact, they explicitly instructed the believers to cut off fellowship with those who refused to follow their teachings in the letters.

The written word is the back-up, so to speak, for the spoken word. That is why many of the early church leaders exhorted believers to NOT accept teachings which did not have the Scriptures as their source. Irenaeus was one:

    Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him. (Against Heresies s III.5.1)

    Irenaeus states further: Our faith is steadfast, unfeigned, and the only true one, having clear proof from these Scriptures...(Ibid., Against Heresies III.21.3).

    In the first place, we prove from the authoritative Scriptures that all the things which have been mentioned, visible and invisible, have been made by one God. For these men are not more to be depended on than the Scriptures...(Ibid., Against Heresies II.30.6)

Nobody is disparaging the role of tradition in our faith, just that the written word is God's objective authority by which all rule of faith truth claims should be measured. Are there issues not mentioned in Scripture that we seek to know and understand? Sure, but we have assurance that, what is needful for us to know to be saved and to live our lives in faith, is found in the Holy Scriptures and we have been given the very Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Irenaeus also said:

    If, therefore, even with respect to creation, there are some things [the knowledge of] which belongs only to God, and others which come within the range of our own knowledge, what ground is there for complaint, if, in regard to those things which we investigate in the Scriptures (which are throughout spiritual), we are able by the grace of God to explain some of them, while we must leave others in the hands of God, and that not only in the present world, but also in that which is to come, so that God should for ever teach, and man should for ever learn the things taught him by God?...If, for instance, any one asks, ‘What was God doing before He made the world?’ we reply that the answer to such a question lies with God Himself. For that this world was formed perfect by God, receiving a beginning in time, the Scriptures teach us; but no Scripture reveals to us what God was employed about before this event. The answer therefore to that question remains with God, and it is not proper for us to aim at bringing forward foolish, rash, and blasphemous suppositions [in reply to it]; so, as by one’s imagining that he has discovered the origin of matter, he should in reality set aside God Himself who made all things. But we shall not be wrong if we affirm the same thing also concerning the substance of matter, that God produced it. For we have learned from the Scriptures that God holds the supremacy over all things. But whence or in what way He produced it, neither has Scripture anywhere declared; nor does it become us to conjecture, so as, in accordance with our own opinions, to form endless conjectures concerning God, but we should leave such knowledge in the hands of God Himself (Ibid., Against Heresies II.28.3; II.28.7).

From The Church Fathers and the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture:

In addition, Irenaeus states that the meaning of Scripture is not obscure. He says it can be easily apprehended by those who are willing to receive the teaching of Scripture as a whole, for Scripture itself clearly reveals its main message:

    Since, therefore, the entire Scriptures, the prophets, and the Gospels, can be clearly, unambiguously, and harmoniously understood by all, although all do not believe them; and since they proclaim that one only God, to the exclusion of all others, formed all things by His word, whether visible or invisible, heavenly or earthly, in the water or under the earth, as I have shown from the very words of Scripture; and since the very system of creation to which we belong testifies, by what falls under our notice, that one Being made and governs it—those persons will seem truly foolish who blind their eyes to such a clear demonstration, and will not behold the light of the announcement [made to them]; but they put fetters upon themselves, and every one of them imagines, by means of their obscure interpretations of the parables, that he has found out a God of his own. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies II.27.2.)

To Irenaeus, then, Scripture is the full and final revelation given by God to man through the apostles. It is inspired and authoritative and a source of proof for discerning truth and error. It is Scripture that has final and sufficient authority and is the ground and pillar of the Church’s faith. The Scriptures are both materially and formally sufficient.

But the question arises, Did not Irenaeus also appeal to tradition as a source of authority? And did he not speak of the authority of the Church? The answer to both questions is yes. But this affirmation does not negate the fact that, for Irenaeus, Scripture is the final authority in all matters of faith. This becomes clear upon examination of his teaching on tradition and ecclesiastical authority.

This, to me, is the true definition of sola Scriptura. It is the final authority in all matters of the Christian faith.

56 posted on 03/09/2013 7:03:33 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

“...the written word is the back up so to speak for the spoken word,

Perhaps it is the opposite - since antiquity had no written word. Perhaps the purest form of Christ’s teachings in His life itself- no (written words) describe it properly


57 posted on 03/09/2013 10:12:54 PM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: boatbums

Moses relied on oral tradition for the Commandments.

It comes back to the person to trust. Christians trust Christ. FIRST, we must trust His example. THEN we see what was written.

That is why catholics look to the works (of Jesus) then follow Him. A rabbi (teacher) shows his students what to do.


59 posted on 03/10/2013 7:07:00 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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