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To: boatbums

The crucifixion accounts paint very different pictures of Jesus as he went to be crucified.

Mark 15:21, Matthew 27:32, Luke 23:26 - Jesus gets help from Simon of Cyrene.
John 19:17 - Jesus carries his own cross the whole way.

Those are discrepancies you can’t reconcile. Either he carried it the whole way himself or he got help. One of these accounts must be an error. One of them must be wrong.

What about the two thieves who were crucified alongside Jesus?

Mark - The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation.
Matthew 27:44 - The two thieves taunt Jesus.
Luke 23:39-42 - One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day, though John and Acts say he did not ascend to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection.
John - The two men aren’t described as thieves.

So which of these accounts is the inerrant, inspired Word of God?

What does Jesus drink on the cross?

Mark 15:23 - Jesus is given wine mixed with myrrh, but he doesn’t drink it.
Matthew 27:48, Luke 23:36 - Jesus is given vinegar, but he doesn’t drink it.
John 19:29-30 - Jesus is given vinegar and he drinks it.

What about the Romans who witness the crucifixion?

Mark 15:39 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was the son of God!”
Matthew 27:54 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this was the son of God.”
Luke 23:47 - A centurion is cited as saying: “Truly this man was innocent.”
John - No centurions say anything.

Matthew and Mark are fairly consistent here, but they are in flat contradiction of John and different in a notable way from Luke.

What about the women?

Mark 15:40, Matthew 27:55, Luke 23:49 - Several women watch Jesus from afar.
John 19:25-26 - Several woman are close enough that Jesus could talk to his mother, contrary to Roman practices.

So were they watching from afar or from nearby? It can’t be both.

When did the Crucifixion occur?

Mark 15:25 - Jesus was crucified on the “third hour.”
John 19:14-15 - Jesus was crucified on the “sixth hour.”
Matthew, Luke - It’s not stated when the crucifixion starts, but the “sixth hour” occurs during the crucifixion.

All three cannot be correct.

What were Jesus’s last words?

Mark 15:34-37, Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (but they use different Greek words for “God” — Matthew uses “Eli” and Mark uses “Eloi”).
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.”

So we get the portrayal of a Jesus who is abandoned (or feels abandones, anyway), or one who accepts his mission, or one who is simply resigned to the events. So again, which is it? It can’t be all of the above.

And these just deal with the crucifixion. This is just one of many subjects on which there are discrepancies. There are enough to fill a book — and they have. Several, in fact.


231 posted on 03/15/2013 9:11:27 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: TBP; boatbums
Those are discrepancies you can’t reconcile. Either he carried it the whole way himself or he got help. One of these accounts must be an error. One of them must be wrong.

No, not necessarily. You would do well to research crucifixion and especially the customs regarding 'carrying one's cross', which admittedly vary in time, not to mention the whim of the magistrate and soldiers involved. I will give you a hint: The part that must be carried in order to fulfill 'carrying the whole way' is the horizontal member, or cross-piece, which is the primal definition of 'cross'. That does not mean, necessarily, that he started the process carrying only the cross-piece.

What you seem to see as an insurmountable dichotomy, I see as forensic evidence - I know he was crucified upon what can be precisely identified as a cross of Mithras. Not a stake, not a tau, not a tree, even though all of these are qualified and interchangeable forms of crucifixion (and among the many variations used by Rome, and cited by the Bible). Because of this evidence (and the sign nailed above him), the only qualified possibility is the Mithras cross.

What about the two thieves who were crucified alongside Jesus?

Your assumption is that there were only two. The literal sense implies 5 crucified that day: Two thieves who mocked him, one malcontent who mocked him, and one malcontent who did not... and the key to understanding the evidence is the breaking of the legs.

So which of these accounts is the inerrant, inspired Word of God?

All of them. The problem you are encountering is by design. While there are four witnesses in the Gospels, each one testifies to a different aspect of Messiah. The whole message is not found until they are juxtaposed - Overlaid - All of the aspects seen together will offer astounding insight, and a perfect and prophetic chronology.

That is why one will omit an instance, where another will not. That is why one will emphasize what another will minimize... And it is only one with a sure belief in the literal sense - A LOVE of it - that will earnestly search out the meaning. That meaning is there. The evidence is sure. Dig deeper.

246 posted on 03/20/2013 9:59:18 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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