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To: daniel1212
Your model is justified by the unity it claims to produce

That's a slightly different point. The point here is sola scriptura fails to produce "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

From here, I would argue that a doctrine that failed to produce this and unity is not one the Apostles would or did support and not one that Our Lord would establish praying that "we be one as He and His father are one."

This was not how God passed on and preserved truth in the past…

I don't think Moses or the Rabbinical school is sola scriptura at all. In addition there is the oral torah/written torah.

And it never proclaimed that whatever its claimed successors claimed to be teaching to all the church would be protected from error.

Body of Christ, Christ as the head, guided by God the Holy Spirit, the pillar and foundation of truth that the gates of hell shall not prevail against. Sounds close enough to me. :)

317 posted on 03/05/2013 9:58:29 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
From here, I would argue that a doctrine that failed to produce this and unity is not one the Apostles would or did support and not one that Our Lord would establish praying that "we be one as He and His father are one."

See my other comments on OLOFOB, while contrary to your thesis, sola ecclesia fails to produce the unity RCs imagine Rome effectual produces, and which is not the same unity as that of the early church, as it does not have the same basis, and Rome's gospel preaching is manifestly far different from the regeneration we see it effecting in Acts.

The Watchtower society also claims to have the unity of the early church, and in doctrinal conformity it surpasses Rome, but as in Rome, its based for unity is upon implicit submission to an infallible type of magisterium, and its authority is limited to their flock.

For Rome to claim supremacy then its basis cannot be her claim to a supreme unity that was like that of the early church, as not only did the latter unity have a different basis, but Rome also fosters much disunity, and in addition every church can teach doctrines and can require consent and claim unity under it, and which can be more conformist than Rome.

Thus the real argument for Rome as supreme is that her claim alone is warranted, based upon historical descent, stewardship of Divine revelation, and being the inheritor of Divine promises, all of which are an interpretation in competition with others. And thus my questions to you which you have yet to affirm.

I don't think Moses or the Rabbinical school is sola scriptura at all. In addition there is the oral torah/written torah.

And as in Catholicism, the mere tradition of the elders was taught in their oral tradition as doctrine, and thus the Lord reproved them by Scripture, (Mk. 7:1-16) and He established His claims upon Scriptural substantiation, and thus the church began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses.

Under the Roman model the Lord would have been rejected for so reproving them, and thus would be was opposed as not having their sanction, as Rome has done to others who corrected them.

333 posted on 03/06/2013 11:25:19 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: D-fendr; CynicalBear; smvoice; boatbums; BlueDragon
That's a slightly different point. The point here is sola scriptura fails to produce "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

As does sola ecclesia, as "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" is itself is interpreted differently by different churches, both as to what theological extent this is to taken and the meaning of each.

Even when restricting sola ecclesia to Catholicism, you have disagreements as to whether the "one Lord' means the Father sends the Spirit or He is sent by both the Father and the Son, and whether "one faith" means under an infallible pope having unhindered universal jurisdiction and power, as well as what most departed Catholics experience (re. purgatorial existence), as well as multiple others aspects of faith , both among RCs and Catholicism at large, including whether chrismation with anointed oil from the apostles is part of the baptismal rite to receive the Holy Spirit, and whether extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means baptized Prots need not repent from sola fide and convert to Catholicism to be saved, and whether baptism of desire is an infallible teaching. Etc.

And the idea of a real depth of unity in Rome to an extent superior to all other churches is simply imagination.

Then you have the problem of the aberrations that result from making the church supreme over Scripture enables, such as defining "one Lord" to mean he was once a man, etc.

However, in a more restricted sense of OLOFOB, individual groups under both models for unity can claim to hold to "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." A basic unity under Scripture as the supreme infallible standard is seen among many groups by common affirmation and contention for "one Lord" as meaning the Trinity, and salvation by faith alone appropriating justification, but not alone as not resulting in works of faith. And which results in having One Father in all, by the One Spirit.

As for one baptism, the Scriptures mention more than one, and the one baptism is can be understood as the commanded ordinance which confesses faith in the Lord Jesus, while the baptism of the one Spirit into the one body of Christ which happens at conversion, (1 Cor. 12:13) and the baptism with the Spirit (Acts 8:14-17; 10:43-46;15:7-9) falls under "the doctrine of baptisms," plural, listed among fundamental beliefs in Heb. 6:2.

Again, you cannot escape interpretation of either Scripture or the church on the personal level, or by individual church groups.

And while the ecclesiastical magisterium is to hand down authoritative judgments, yet its authority is not based upon a claim to perpetual assured infallibility, but upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, which is what was behind that of Acts 15 .

And while ideally there should be a central magisterium, rather a divided kingdom with an individual magisteriums, which Rome is only one of, but she has more than manifested that she is not worthy of her elitist claims, based upon the Scriptural standard for authority, upon which the church began in dissent from those who also claimed more for themselves than what is written.

Finally, the only unity that Scripture affirms is that which is of the Spirit, (Eph. 4:3) which most essentially is that which true born again believers realize among themselves, which is greater than their differences (and comprehensive unity has never been realized), which is based upon a shared Lord, faith and baptism, that of a shared evangelical conversion to the One Lord, by the one efficacious faith that is behind it, and the one baptism that results from it.

349 posted on 03/06/2013 6:44:23 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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