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So when I examine the "fruits" of the Catholic church and I see 1500 years of murder, torture, corruption, and general mayhem..

You see what you want to see.

You don't see the church that built the whole Christian civilization of Western Europe, without which Christianity simply wouldn't have survived the Islamic onslaught, and we would be arguing today about the Koran, not the Bible.

You don't see 2000 years of saints who are universally recognized as examples of profound Christian discipleship.

You don't see theologians like Aquinas and Augustine and Leo whose teaching inspires Protestants and Catholics alike to this day.

You don't see the Church that brought Christ to nations from India to Japan to Mexico before North America settlement began.

You see what you want to see, a black legend intended to promote hatred and suspicion. You see what you want to see.

"You see what you want to see."

I see what you refuse to see.

"You don't see the church that built the whole Christian civilization of Western Europe, without which Christianity simply wouldn't have survived the Islamic onslaught, and we would be arguing today about the Koran, not the Bible."

You mean forced on Western Europe by Rome don't you? They had no choice. In 1588 Pope Sixtus V supported Phillip II of Spain to invade England to retake England for the Catholic church in that little battle known as the Spanish Armada. That's just one of a long list.

"You don't see 2000 years of saints who are universally recognized as examples of profound Christian discipleship."

There were good individuals through out time despite their circumstances.

"You don't see the Church that brought Christ to nations from India to Japan to Mexico before North America settlement began.

The Catholics brought Christ to Mexico with their own version of holy war.

You see what you want to see, a black legend intended to promote hatred and suspicion. You see what you want to see.

I don't need to promote anything. I don't need to embellish or distort, only report the exact truth of history. You're making this about me, the messenger, and ignoring the message.

I'm sorry if you're offended.

If it truly was the Church of God on Earth, it would have to be so from day 1 to year 2013 and every day after. Not sporadically with hits or misses through the ages.